Public school zero tolerance policies.

@JTT,

so you would rather be reactive then proactive?

0 Replies

Quote:

We have something similar - but it is a private school - we agree to all sorts of crap. As a result I am terrified of what my kid will wear on a dress down day - or any other sort of thing they may bring in. On the positive side - being such a small school if they did do something inappropriate, I 'd more likely get a call telling me I broke ABC rule - rather than anything actually happening. I guess that is an advantage of knowing everyone at some personal level within the school.

I don't mind the rule and I agree with you phone call thing.

If someone called me saying that my son's GI Joe was breaking a rule, I would chuckle a bit as I asked my son to leave his toys at home.

I would be mighty upset if my son was punished for this. My kids go to city schools, there is occasionally a problem with kids bringing real (i.e. not toy) knives.

0 Replies

@msolga,

Quote:

I was addressing the "zero tolerance" aspect of this discussion.

Which it looks like no one is much interested in discussing. Never mind. That's OK.

But it was an interesting question to me, given the number of times "zero tolerance" policies have been discussed & criticized in discussions about schools here. I would have been interested to hear your views about whether, in some circumstances, zero tolerance policies might in fact be appropriate.

2 Replies

@msolga,

I think they'd be appropriate for real weapons, real drugs, cigarettes and alcohol. I think there should be absolutely zero tolerance for these items on a public school campus. I also think there should be zero tolerance for certain behaviors.

The policies as they are make no sense at all.

I don't know the kid this happened to but let's assume he's a nice, normal thrird grader who didn't mean any harm. Now he has this note in his file saying he brought a "simulated weapon" to school. He moves and enrolls in a different school or even just moves on to middle school where the teachers don't know him at all except for what is in his past record. Suppose they treat him with suspicion? What if it changes their behavior towards him and ends up making him a real problem?

I can see why the dad is so upset about this and wants this note removed from his kid's record.

2 Replies

@boomerang,

Thank you for responding to my question, boomerang. We are in agreement here.

Personally I think the best approach to the "pretend weapons" situation (assuming they've been a problem. I honestly don't know for sure.) would have been a more of a "educational dialogue" within the school community, rather than a blanket zero tolerance policy.

Quote:

I don't know the kid this happened to but let's assume he's a nice, normal thrird grader who didn't mean any harm. Now he has this note in his file saying he brought a "simulated weapon" to school. He moves and enrolls in a different school or even just moves on to middle school where the teachers don't know him at all except for what is in his past record. Suppose they treat him with suspicion? What if it changes their behavior towards him and ends up making him a real problem?

I can see why the dad is so upset about this and wants this note removed from his kid's record.

I'm in complete agreement on this with you, too.
It is a huge overreaction to what actually occurred, with totally inappropriate consequences for the student. His dad has every right to be upset.

1 Reply

@msolga,

And, if in fact the presence of these "pretend weapons" in schools is related to bullying incidents (which is my best guess as to why they were perceived as a problem in the first place), then surely it would be more appropriate to seriously address that problem? It's an extremely serious issue for many students, whose school lives are made a misery as a result of the acknowledged wide-spread prevalence of bullying.

0 Replies

@boomerang,

Quote:

Personally I think the best approach to the "pretend weapons" situation (assuming they've been a problem. I honestly don't know for sure.) would have been a more of a "educational dialogue" within the school community, rather than a blanket zero tolerance policy.

Quote:

I think they'd be appropriate for real weapons, real drugs, cigarettes and alcohol. I think there should be absolutely zero tolerance for these items on a public school campus. I also think there should be zero tolerance for certain behaviors.

The policies as they are make no sense at all.

Agree and agree, completely, MsOlga and Boomer. Eight year olds make mistakes, even teens make mistakes. That's why we do education instead of just jailing them.

0 Replies

@boomerang,

I expressed my disdain for the zero tolerance policies here at a2k time and time again. Every so called violation needs to be taken at a case by case level.

Anything other then that is sheer fearmongering and PC fascist at its worst.

1 Reply

@tsarstepan,

I think, tsar, that say, the presence of real weapons in schools (like knives, as I mentioned in my earlier post), have far too serious implications to be taken on a case by case basis.

2 Replies

@msolga,

The question then remains... how do you define real weapons.

From a liability standpoint. You can't have both case by case basis in terms of simulated weapons and real weapons. Take knives for instance. How do you define a knife? Strictly by the length of a blade?

Then if a troublemaker wanter to really bring in a weapon, he'll find a deadly knife that's below the standard of definition for a real weapon.

Can someone take in a starter's pistol? That's not a real weapon (though technically people have been injured by bits of the cap flying out of the thing.

My problem is once real weapons are defined, there will be people who can walk through the defined loopholes while the innocent and naive students get suspended because they brought in an item with only the academic value of the piece on their mind.

Then what happens when someone is assaulted with an object not covered by the alleged definitive list of so called real weapons. The injured party now has a negligence lawsuit against the school for not covering that item.

Besides, no zero tolerance policy would have stopped the worst case scenarios like the Columbine shootings.

Quote:

And, if in fact the presence of these "pretend weapons" in schools is related to bullying incidents (which is my best guess as to why they were perceived as a problem in the first place), then surely it would be more appropriate to seriously address that problem? It's an extremely serious issue for many students, whose school lives are made a misery as a result of the acknowledged wide-spread prevalence of bullying.

And I have to totally disagree on your analysis here. Bullies don't need pretend weapons to get their malicious point across.

Pretend weapons fall under the the no tolerance policy because it is literally impossible to define the list in terms of banning real weapons and the list of toys that could be considered simulated weapons. There is far too much overlap.

It's easier for school administrations to have a single no tolerance policy that blankets every possible unforseen option to protect the school from lawsuit. Please don't be too naive to think that no tolerance policies are there to actually protect the students, the teachers, the administrators, and everyone else at school.

2 Replies

@msolga,

I don't think so, MsOlga. The possibility exists for unusual circumstances. Children deserve to be treated as adults are treated. Find out the facts then make a decision. An arbitrary decision made pursuant to a blanket zero tolerance policy could have a major affect on a young person's life.

By saying this, I'm not suggesting that incidents with knives and guns are just to passed over.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

I don't think so, MsOlga. The possibility exists for unusual circumstances. Children deserve to be treated as adults are treated. Find out the facts then make a decision. An arbitrary decision made pursuant to a blanket zero tolerance policy could have a major affect on a young person's life.

By saying this, I'm not suggesting that incidents with knives and guns are just to passed over.

Sadly children are never treated as adults in school,

1 Reply

When my daughter was in private (elementary) school, I used to give her a plastic knife and fork for her school lunches, as we eat with knife and fork at
home. No one ever objected to that. We haven't tried that in public school though...

2 Replies

@tsarstepan,

Quote:

The question then remains... how do you define real weapons.

From a liability standpoint. You can't have both case by case basis in terms of simulated weapons and real weapons. Take knives for instance. How do you define a knife? Strictly by the length of a blade?

Then if a troublemaker wanter to really bring in a weapon, he'll find a deadly knife that's below the standard of definition for a real weapon.

Frankly, tsar I define any knife with a metal blade as a knife. The size of the blade of the type of knife is immaterial to me. There is plenty of published evidence that all sorts of knives (like domestic & kitchen knives) are being carried around by young people, especially, (for "protection") & there have been a rising number of knife attacks in Australia recently. In the case quoted below a 12 year old student was killed by another student in his own class last week. I personally cannot see any pressing reason for any student to bring a knife to school & support a zero tolerance.

Quote:

Sadly, we've had a recent tragic incident involving a real weapon here. A 12 year old student was killed by another student in a knifing incident. (Not in a public school, a private (Catholic) school, btw). Knives appear to be becoming the "weapon of choice" by young people (& some others) in the broader community lately & it's spilled over into our schools. I suspect we are about to get into some quite serious zero tolerance policies as a result.

2 Replies

@CalamityJane,

Rest assured, in a public school, if a grumpy irrational adult would see the plastic knife, he or she would have the prerogative to pull the no tolerance trigger and have the child suspended. Plastic knife = simulated weapon even if it has the round tip like a butter knife. That's the very definition of a no tolerance policy.

You and your daughter are lucky that the administrators in her school have some rational sense in their collective noggins.

0 Replies

@msolga,

Frankly, tsar I define any knife with a metal blade as a knife. The size of the blade of the type of knife is immaterial to me. [/quote]
Then a trouble maker brings in a 10 inch ceramic knife. Beats your definition.

http://www.ceramicknife.org/
These are not metal knives. They are ceramic.

Then you define to ban ceramic knifes. Then another loophole will be found to circumnavigate that rule. Etc....

1 Reply

Ah, I suppose the Girl Scouts have quit cooking classes by now..

1 Reply

@Seed,

Quote:

Sadly children are never treated as adults in school,

I can only respond with my knowledge & experience of how young people are treated in the education system I know. (ie Victoria, Australia)

And I believe there is every attempt to treat young people with appropriate respect. Sometimes in very trying circumstances, in some of the more 'troubled" schools..

Apart from anything else, I don't that it's appropriate to treat say, 12 year olds, as adults. Because they aren't adults. But I do believe it is appropriate to treat them with fairness & respect. And to involve them in discussing & formulating policy decisions which affect their school lives.

0 Replies

@CalamityJane,

Quote:

When my daughter was in private (elementary) school, I used to give her a plastic knife and fork for her school lunches, as we eat with knife and fork at
home. No one ever objected to that. We haven't tried that in public school though...

For Gods sake, make sure it is not a metal knife!

Quote:

OMAHA, Neb. --
A butter knife in a boy's book bag led to suspension at Omaha Public Schools this week.

Ethan Gray is a first-grader at Ed Babe Gomez Heritage Elementary School at 17th and P streets. Gray said he didn't know the knife was in his book bag. OPS said it has a zero-tolerance policy.

Now, there's a standoff. Gray's parents say they won't send their son to school until the district backs down on its mandatory suspension, and the district said it doesn't have any plans to do that.

Gray, who is 6, said he brought his book bag to school on Monday, but when he set it down, one of his family's butter knives fell out onto the cafeteria floor. A teacher walked up to question him.

Gray told the teacher he wasn't sure how the knife got there. His family thinks his 4-year-old brother, Ben, put it there

http://www.ketv.com/education/5027982/detail.html

0 Replies

@tsarstepan,

To my best knowledge there aren't any known "issues" with ceramic knives here. Generally it's the carrying & use domestic knives that have caused the problems in the broad Oz community.

0 Replies

Public school zero tolerance policies.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know