Moral Nature of Human Beings: Born Good or Evil?

You are absolutely correct----I really didn't intend to convey an absurd absolute. I was merely frustrated with the "snowball" definition as being "a lack of empathy"----now that to me is absurd. Evil is so bad that it is beyond description but let's try to be realistic.

twyvel's quote, "I guess the question; Is there a devil? Is related to the question; Is there a god?" is the 'final' answer. It's impossible to conclude with a single defintion of "devil" or "god," therefore, it's all subjective as twyvel say's it is - IMHO.

On the contrary Twyvel---the word evil need not have any relation to the devil but of course it would if you have a religious background. Similarly the word good need not have any relation to God unless you are religious.

This discussion so far has only illustrated the futility of having a discussion using words that cannot be defined.
It also points to the many deficiencies of the English language

Language is like a tool, say, a hammer. Don't fault the tool if you hit your thumb. Blame the political party you oppose instead.

Craven, I think most people that hit their thumbs with their hammer blame it on "oh ****" or "oh fu*k." Some say "goddam it!"

perception,



I agree (in part), and I don't think I explicitly said other wise.


Even if god and the devil do not exist….

The devil is to evil as god is to good…………..ideally………...as conceptual constructs. They are usable tools as Creven said.

Craven, that looks like a Jackson Pollock in Motion, sans color...

I agree -- but there is a problem that comes with the notion and with the agreement.


Consider:

Many religious folks will say the following comment is evil:

"I think the god of the Bible is one of the most disgusting, barbaric, murderous, petty gods ever invented by the human mind. I think anyone who accepts that god -- as God (should one exist) -- is simply not thinking about what the god does and says."


But that is not an evil statement. At least not in my estimation.

Frank wrote:

I think I would replace, Can a true statement be evil?

with

Can the truth be evil?

Fact is, ANYTHING can be CONSIDERED evil -- and given the opportunity, a segment of the religious people among us will consider damn near everything evil -- especially if someone is enjoying it.

As long as there is ignorance I guess anything can be considered evil, even the truth.

This may strike you as odd but I want to say it anyway

When I hear the word evil-----I immediately picture the head of a snake with flickering tongue and those black bottomless pools of black that are his eyes as he strikes a rat----a few seconds later he will swallow that rat----not because he just loves to kill rats but because he is hungry.-----The snake is not evil but that picture is a construct of my mind probably because in those eyes one sees nothing but death----why?---- because the snake is a killing machine as is the crocodile and every predator. However in the eyes of some warm blooded predators one can see other emotions such as fear, or rage, or affection for their young.

Someone gave examples of evil in the animal kingdom and it may be true that evil exists in animals other than man but I believe evil is a concept of man and that it does exist but only when that rare human gives in to the impulse and then acts out the evil. Having evil thoughts is not a sin or even illegal but acting out those thoughts is a different story.

I would like to hear others describe the mental pictures you have when hearing the word evil.

Black Kettle was a peace-seeking chief of a band of some 600 Southern Cheyennes and Arapahos that followed the buffalo along the Arkansas River of Colorado and Kansas. They reported to Fort Lyon and then camped on Sand Creek about 40 miles north.
Shortly afterward, Chivington led a force of about 700 men into Fort Lyon, and gave the garrison notice of his plans for an attack on the Indian encampment. Although he was informed that Black Kettle has already surrendered, Chivington pressed on with what he considered the perfect opportunity to further the cause for Indian extinction. On the morning of November 29, he led his troops, many of them drinking heavily, to Sand Creek and positioned them, along with their four howitzers, around the Indian village.
Black Kettle ever trusting raised both an American and a white flag of peace over his tepee. In response, Chivington raised his arm for the attack. Chivington wanted a victory, not prisoners, and so men, women and children were hunted down and shot.
With cannons and rifles pounding them, the Indians scattered in panic. Then the crazed soldiers charged and killed anything that moved. A few warriors managed to fight back to allow some of the tribe to escape across the stream, including Black Kettle.
The colonel was as thourough as he was heartless. An interpreter living in the village testified, "THEY WERE SCALPED, THEIR BRAINS KNOCKED OUT; THE MEN USED THEIR KNIVES, RIPPED OPEN WOMEN, CLUBBED LITTLE CHILDREN, KNOCKED THEM IN THE HEAD WITH THEIR RIFLE BUTTS, BEAT THEIR BRAINS OUT, MUTILATED THEIR BODIES IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD." By the end of the one-sided battle as many as 200 Indians, more than half women and children, had been killed and mutilated. Upon returning to Denver Col Chivington and his men paraded through the city displaying the butchered genitalia of the women and children they had slaughtered to cheering crowds.

The prophet mohammad peace be upon him said that every person on earth is born good, but his parents or family or society change him.

barh--m, I think profit mohammed may be right. We're tainted as soon as we see the light of day, because we want to be fed.

Bringing religion into again are we baroooom?

how do you know mohammad was a prophet? cause he wrote a book?
lots of people write books, but not all of them are prophets. how do you know he wasnt some crackpot with some ink who made a joke? infact i thought it was a little suspicious that he dissapears into the desert (with a bible ive heard, or at least easy access to one) and comes out with this book that god told him to write. so no one saw god talk to him or anything, it was based on his word alone. kinda makes question his credibility

truth
I have no doubt that Good and Evil are evaluations made by humans. When a lion kills its cub or a hyena, when Chivington butchered the Indians, these were acts of no significance in the Cosmic scheme. As far as I know nature is morally indifferent to all acts. We, however, as moral beings, make judgements as naturally as my lemon tree drops lemons. I too cringe at Chivington's and Hitler's acts, but I know that they are my moral inclinations that cause my reaction. So, what I'm saying is that morality is a human CONSTRUCTION and we humans are predisposed to make such constructions (psychopaths form an exception, of course). Ergo, if what I say is valid, Jesus and the Devil are OUR incarnations of Good and Evil; they are, as such, metaphors for constructions.

Hey JL where have you been?

I agree but didn't you forget to say that the knowledge that forms these "incarnations" is learned and not innate.