The Antediluvian Peace

Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 05:45 pm
Historically, one of the strongest drives which the human race has is to somehow recreate or restore antediluvian conditions, which were viewed as quasi-paradisial and referred to by ancient writers as a "golden" age.

"Avatar" is an attempt at just that drive rendered onto the big screen in 3D except that they missed one detail, i.e. that the antediluvian world was not basically warlike or dominated by Darwinian fang/claw type conduct.

The Bible indicates that meat was not eaten prior to the flood:
GEN 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which
is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit
of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

GEN 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to
every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given
every green herb for meat: and it was so.

but that after the flood, aside from predation amongst animals, man was given permission to hunt and kill food as well:


GEN 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be
fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

GEN 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast
of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the
earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

GEN 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the
green herb have I given you all things.

GEN 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye
not eat.

GEN 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of
every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every
man's brother will I require the life of man.

The story of Baldur in Norse myths is probably a parable. Baldur probably represents the human race, and God extracted a promise from every living thing not to harm him/them, forgetting only the mistletoe.

Plato (The Statesman dialog) describes the antediluvian peace thus:


Str. I see that you enter into my meaning;-no, that blessed and
spontaneous life does not belong to the present cycle of the world,
but to the previous one, in which God superintended the whole
revolution of the universe; and the several parts the universe were
distributed under the rule. certain inferior deities, as is the way in
some places still There were demigods, who were the shepherds of the
various species and herds of animals, and each one was in all respects
sufficient for those of whom he was the shepherd; neither was there
any violence, or devouring of one another or war or quarrel among
them; and I might tell of ten thousand other blessings, which belonged
to that dispensation. The reason why the life of man was, as tradition
says, spontaneous, is as follows: In those days God himself was
their shepherd, and ruled over them, just as man, over them, who is by
comparison a divine being, still rules over the lower animals. Under
him there were no forms of government or separate possession of
women and children; for all men rose again from the earth, having no
memory, of the past. And although they had nothing of this sort, the
earth gave them fruits in abundance, which grew on trees and shrubs
unbidden, and were not planted by the hand of man. And they dwelt
naked, and mostly in the open air, for the temperature of their
seasons, was mild; and they had no beds, but lay on Soft couches of
grass, which grew plentifully out of: the earth. Such was the life
of man in the days of Cronos, Socrates; the character of our present
life which is said to be under Zeus, you know from your own
experience. Can you, and will you, determine which of them you deem
the happier?
Y. Soc. Impossible.
Str. Then shall I determine for you as well as I can?
Y. Soc. By all means.
Str. Suppose that the nurslings of Cronos, having this boundless
leisure, and the power of holding intercourse, not only with men,
but with the brute creation, had used all these advantages with a view
to philosophy, conversing with the brutes as well as with one another,
and learning of every nature which was gifted with any special
power, and was able to contribute some special experience to the store
of wisdom there would be no difficulty in deciding that they would
be a thousand times happier than the men of our own day. Or, again, if
they had merely eaten and drunk until they were full, and told stories
to one another and to the animals-such stories as are now attributed
to them-in this case also, as I should imagine, the answer would be
easy. But until some satisfactory witness can be found of the love
of that age for knowledge and: discussion, we had better let the
matter drop, and give the reason why we have unearthed this tale,
and then we shall be able to get on.
In the fulness of time, when the change was to take place, and the
earth-born race had all perished, and every soul had completed its
proper cycle of births and been sown in the earth her appointed number
of times, the pilot of the universe let the helm go, and retired to
his place of view; and then Fate and innate desire reversed the motion
of the world. Then also all the inferior deities who share the rule of
the supreme power, being informed of what was happening, let go the
parts of the world which were under their control. And the world
turning round with a sudden shock, being impelled in an opposite
direction from beginning to end, was shaken by a mighty earthquake,
which wrought a new destruction of all manner of animals.
Afterwards, when sufficient time had elapsed, the tumult and confusion
and earthquake ceased, and the universal creature, once more at
peace attained to a calm, and settle down into his own orderly and
accustomed course, having the charge and rule of himself and of all
the creatures which are contained in him, and executing, as far as
he remembered them, the instructions of his Father and Creator, more
precisely at first, but afterwords with less exactness. The reason
of the falling off was the admixture of matter in him; this was
inherent in the primal nature, which was full of disorder, until
attaining to the present order. From God, the constructor; the world
received all that is good in him, but from a previous state came
elements of evil and unrighteousness, which, thence derived, first
of all passed into the world, and were then transmitted to the
animals. While the world was aided by the pilot in nurturing the
animals, the evil was small, and great the good which he produced, but
after the separation, when the world was let go, at first all
proceeded well enough; but, as time went there was more and more
forgetting, and the old discord again held sway and burst forth in
full glory; and at last small was the good, and great was the
admixture of evil, and there was a danger of universal ruin to the
world, and the things contained in him. Wherefore God, the orderer
of all, in his tender care, seeing that the world was in great
straits, and fearing that all might be dissolved in the storm and
disappear in infinite chaos, again seated himself at the helm; and
bringing back the elements which had fallen into dissolution and
disorder to the motion which had prevailed under his dispensation,
he set them in order and restored them, and made the world
imperishable and immortal.
And this is the whole tale, of which the first part will suffice
to illustrate the nature of the king. For when the world turned
towards the present cycle of generation, the age of man again stood
still, and a change opposite to the previous one was the result. The
small creatures which had almost disappeared grew in and stature,
and the newly-born children of the earth became grey and died and sank
into the earth again. All things changed, imitating and following
the condition of the universe, and of necessity agreeing with that
in their mode of conception and generation and nurture; for no animal;
was any longer allowed to come into being in the earth through the
agency of other creative beings, but as the world was ordained to be
the lord of his own progress, in like manner the parts were ordained
to grow and generate and give nourishment, as far as they could, of
themselves, impelled by a similar movement. And so we have arrived
at the real end of this discourse; for although there might be much to
tell of the lower animals, and of the condition out of which they
changed and of the causes of the change, about men there is not
much, and that little is more to the purpose. Deprived of the care
of God, who had possessed and tended them, they were left helpless and
defenceless, and were torn in pieces by the beasts, who were
naturally fierce and had now grown wild. And in the first ages they
were still without skill or resource; the food which once grew
spontaneously had failed, and as yet they knew not how to procure
it, because they-had never felt the pressure of necessity. For all
these reasons they were in a great strait

The only serious book I know of about antediluvian life is Richard Heinberg's "Paradise":


And you can still find copies of it here and there.

Certain kinds of things can be known with some certainty about antediluvian life, most of the rest is conjecture. Heinberg notes that remains of very old cities have been found without walls. That of course, within recorded history, is crazy. In some languages including Russian in fact, the words for "city" and for walls and fences are generally the same words.

The big question of course is what about predators and on that one I don't even have anything good enough to call a conjecture and would only offer a wild-ass guess, i.e. that before the flood, predators ate fish. Mammalian predators at least. I'd also guess that the real age of dinosaurs was prior to the age of the biblical antediluvians or any sort of an antediluvian peace, and that carniverous dinosaurs likely ate other dinosaurs.

The antediluvian peace in other words was probably an interval and not the entire state of our planet from the beginning to the flood.

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Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 06:26 pm
Somehow I missed that while watching Avatar.
0 Replies
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 08:29 pm
The Bible indicates that meat was not eaten prior to the flood:
but that after the flood, aside from predation amongst animals, man was given permission to hunt and kill food as well:

That makes sense. As I hear it, Lucy swore herself to vegetarianism. It was discovered in her journal.
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:14 pm
"The Flood" is herein tossed about by Mr Snake as if it were a historical event.
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 01:15 pm
Not only Gunga. And many of these folks even say it with a straight face.
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Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 09:45 am
Like I say, I do not view our planet as < 10K years old and I have other problems with most Christian views towards dinosaurs as well. Midrashim generally describe dinosaurs as a handfull of leftovers still walking around just prior to the flood; the true main age of dinosaurs has to have been a tad further back than that, probably a few tens of thousands of years, possibly even a hundred thousand.

I don't picture humans dealing with raptors with bows and arrows and I assume humans never inhabited this planet while those things were walking around. In particular, in that scene showing kids playing around a tyrannosaur at the Creation Museum in Kentucky, if one of those kids were mine he'd be easy enough to tell from the others, he'd be the one with the Marlin 45/70 rifle in his hands...

Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 10:21 am
youve come far pilgrim. Now if you could divest yourself of the "flood myth" (since there is absolutely nothing out there to support it) youd be able to discuss "deep time" on a more rational basis.

remember, the mere presence of water borne deposits does not imply "Flood" water comes in oceans, rivers, swamps, estuaries, lakes , glaciofluvial trains etc etc. ALL of these various water borne deposits are separated from contiguous ones by TIME. For example. the beach deposits pf the lower Silurian (of the Appalachians) rests atop the water borne deposits of the mid Ordovician. The only problem is that the LATE ORDOVICIAN, in the same areas is missing (it was all eroded during a mountain building epoch). So the upper Ortdovisian is separated from the lower stage of the SIlurian by 21 to 25 MILLION years of hiatus (erosion surface) That means that the entire Appalachian front was up in the air for about 21 million years at minimum before the next wave of water borne sediments occupied the area.
ALL of your flood deposits can be shown to have been deposited in their respective fashions at theoir respective TIMES , and these times actually are used to define the stages of deposition.

A cross section of Appalachian rocks can be traced from one deep trench to a high glacial moraine and it can be seen that theses were separate and distinct events of deposition, each leaving a unique "footprint" of how water laid down the sediment (whether a beach, a lakem, a deep ocean con shelf, a con slope, an estuary etc).

ALL deposition characteristics, magnetics, isotopic dating, fossils, structural elements, continental derift patterns, and polar reversals, all coalesce nicely to agree on ALL these levels of deposition. SOrry, no universal floods were in the neighborhood.

PS, By the way, you seem to be dwelling more and more on "Midrashim" explanations. I was always under the impression that the Midrash was a search for "Meaning" verse by verse, and not necessarily absolute proof. AS Lewis Black always said
"My people were the absolute best at BULLSHIT" If ya dont believe it rread the Bible . There are people out there who believe the Bible is a SCience Book. These are the ones we sell investments to.
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 07:05 am
The Old Testament was apparently meant as a kind of a reader's digest version of Midrashim, which is the full body of ancient Israelite religious literature.

The closest thing there is to any sort of a large selection of such in English or German is Louis Ginzberg's seven-volume Legends of the Jews, and that's always been a hard thing to come up with prior to the present internet age. Now, the problem has apparently been resolved:


Again midrashim describe several kinds of creatures which a reader has to assume are dinosaurs, but always in ways so as to indicate small numbers of leftovers at an age just prior to the flood:


Leviathan, ziz, and behemot are not the only monsters; there are many others, and marvellous ones, like the reem, a giant animal, of which only one couple, male and female, is in existence. Had there been more, the world could hardly have maintained itself against them. The act of copulation occurs but once in seventy years between them, for God has so ordered it that the male and female reem are at opposite ends of the earth, the one in the east, the other in the west. The act of copulation results in the death of the male. He is bitten by the female and dies of the bite. The female becomes pregnant and remains in this state for no less than twelve years. At the end of this long period she gives birth to twins, a male and a female. The year preceding her delivery she is not able to move. She would die of hunger, were it not that her own spittle flowing copiously from her mouth waters and fructifies the earth near her, and causes it to bring forth enough for her maintenance. For a whole year the animal can but roll from side to side, until finally her belly bursts, and the twins issue forth. Their appearance is thus the signal for the death of the mother reem. She makes room for the new generation, which in turn is destined to suffer the same fate as the generation that went before. Immediately after birth, the one goes eastward and the other westward, to meet only after the lapse of seventy years, propagate themselves, and perish.[144] A traveller who once saw a reem one day old described its height to be four parasangs, and the length of its head one parasang and a half.[145] Its horns measure one hundred ells, and their height is a great deal more.[146]

The cases of the behemoth, Og, the "King of Bashan", or the Ziz 'bird' are similar.

By way of contrast, Amerind traditions come closer to indicating that Amerind ancestors had to deal with larger numbers of dinosaurs although I still cannot picture humans living on the same planet with raptors.



Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 08:31 am
farmerman wrote:

"The Flood" is herein tossed about by Mr Snake as if it were a historical event.

Well, if there was no flood, then how did Mars end up so arid? Stands to reason.
0 Replies
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:20 am
Amerind traditions come closer to indicating that Amerind ancestors had to deal with larger numbers of dinosaurs although I still cannot picture humans living on the same planet with raptors.

Why not? your logic for the existence of other dinosaurs is based upon questionable "cartoons" so why not Raptors also? Let yourself go completely Mr Snake, why sound like just half an idiot.

There is no ******* tangeable evidence for the existence of dinosaurs anywhere close to the origin of any primate. We have about 60 million years of barren (dinosaur free) sediment before the presence of hominids .
Hell, if you believe in a FLOOD, youll buy just about anything.

You present cartoons and comics as evidence. Does your mind need some kind of an outlet of fancy that makes it reject good solid evidence?

Ive seen the petroglyph at the ARches and Im not convinced that it was even contemporaneous with the early Indians.
Even if it were a real [pwtroglyph from the time, where is any REAL evidence of these apatosaurs? and why does the drawing seem to acept the old fashioned (Marsh and Cope) theory that the apatosaurs (then brontosaurus) was a heavy lumbering animal that could only live in swamps where their bulk was counterbalanced by the water?

If they were real "plein aire" drawings of dinos, why not show the interpretation that is based upon their skeletal frames ?

The triceratopsian is probably a bison so Im a bit torqued off about how quickly you accept some cartoon interpretation.

DO we have evidence of the contemporaneous dinos in the rest of the ancient hominid world? They were, after all, all over the planet because of the supercontinents allowing free mixing of species until about 160 my ago.

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Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:42 am
farmerman wrote:
There are people out there who believe the Bible is a SCience Book. These are the ones we sell investments to.

That one seriously cracked me up. Thanks, FM.
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:49 am
Im just a strait mnan here Set, I think all the humor is being presented by Mr Snake.
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Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 11:05 am
How much does a piece of Antediluvia cost, anyway?
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Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 12:40 pm
99% Of the arguments I hear for accepting the standard origins paradigm boil down to the idea that the standard paradigm is internally consistent, therefore it must be true. Nor is it just people outside the system who have noted this:

"A circular argument arises: Interpret the fossil record in terms of a
particular theory of evolution, inspect the interpretation, and note that
it confirms the theory. Well, it would, wouldn't it?"

Dr.. Tom Kemp, Curator
University Museum of Oxford University
" A Fresh Look at the Fossil Record"
New Scientist, Dec 5, 1985, p. 66

There is the further problem in modern academia's having recreated aspects of the medieval world inasmuch as belief in the standard paradigm is a criteria for employment anywhere inside the system. That's the same sort of closed loop which wrecked Detroit.

The world which Lewis Carol created for Alice was internally consistent...

Moreover, the argument might hold water if the anomalies and outliers were exceedingly rare, and if it were not possible to construct any sort of competing general paradigm from them, and there was no internal consistency to any sort of a competing paradigm which anybody might thus try to construct.

That is clearly not the case at present.

Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 02:07 pm
Thats cause yer too fuckin atupid to properly analyze the tons of data, and all you seem to do is post "links" from fellow travelers.
The fossil record doesnt stand on its own. ALL the fossils occupy places in stratigraphic records that are backed up by rigorously arrived at , evidence from radiochemistry, physics, structural geology, and sedimentaation. ALL fossils live at the periods of time predictable for their appearnces. NOW, no other "theory" can claim that fact.

All your hopes and dreams cling to finely held idea that geoscience cand be proven wrong The only thing youve been able to do is to show how little you really know Mr Snake.

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Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 02:39 pm
Ya know, this argument about internal consistency would get you a lot further if the Bible were, itself, internally consistent.
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 03:15 pm
I find the references to "Through the Looking Glass" remarkebly consistent with Mr Snakes worldview. He believes in things that never were and tries to convince us that their lack of real evidence is someone elses conspiracy to undermine his "truth".
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