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Food ethics: How do you choose what species are morally wrong to eat?

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 08:11 am
@Setanta,
Nope.

Bass Strait is between Tasmania and the mainland.

There was a big whaling industry...I have no idea re seals/sea-lions.

I guess the sea-lions have always been there, and they got used to any people they saw not hurting them.

This video shows the new platform, and the critters.

http://vimeo.com/6325496





How it used to be (although these idiots are too close, and would have been told off by a ranger, if seen.)
http://national.atdw.com.au/multimedia/satc/seal_bay_conservation2.jpg

Youtube footage








0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 11:10 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
To me, there was not even a good point of congruence. Thomas merely wished to insert a "gotcha" when my previous post was an example of killing animals for food. We have societal laws and mores that govern when and where its evil to kill people.


That is precisely the point farmerman. We have mores that govern killing people so why shouldn't we have them about killing animals. This is not some "gotcha" it's part and parcel of a debate on animal ethics.

Quote:
SO, the comment was really kinda childish, in my mind, and to keep stirring it up without acknowledging that it was an out of context "quote mine" is a serious oversight Mr moderator.


That's absolute nonsense. It was not "childish" in the least, it was a relevant question that you were rudely dismissive to Thomas about. If anything is childish it was the churlish response you gave him.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 11:11 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Robert, If you cannot follow my train of logic and whats behind my contributions, then you can continue your deposition and try, by fishing, to obtain the answer you wish.


You have not even bothered trying to express any "logic" for food ethics farmerman. I'm sure I'd be able to follow it if you give it a try and if you think you have already done so please point out where in your ramblings you think this occurred.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 11:15 am
@dlowan,
Just let sozlet read her first New Yorker short story -- by E.O. Wilson! It's fantastic. A fictionalized account of an ant colony -- given the author and what I know about ants (like "smelling" alive or dead trumping whether they look alive or dead, just for one), I think all the components are actually true. Highly recommended:

http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2010/01/25/100125fi_fiction_wilson
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 06:59 pm
@sozobe,
How did she react?
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 07:34 pm
@Thomas,
"BEST STORY EVER!"

Doesn't mean too terribly much since she proclaims things best ___ ever on a regular basis, but she really liked it.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 08:07 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:

Just let sozlet read her first New Yorker short story -- by E.O. Wilson! It's fantastic. A fictionalized account of an ant colony -- given the author and what I know about ants (like "smelling" alive or dead trumping whether they look alive or dead, just for one), I think all the components are actually true. Highly recommended:

http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2010/01/25/100125fi_fiction_wilson



I just put it on my looking through animals' eyes thread!

And I am reading it.

Kind of reminds me of Arthur's experiences of the ants in (some versions) TH White's "The Sword in the Stone".
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 06:04 pm
Ok, so I have a bit of a controversial question:

Is it morally superior to eat one large animal than many smaller ones? Considering that many more deaths of the smaller animals are needed and all.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 06:15 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Ok, so I have a bit of a controversial question:

Is it morally superior to eat one large animal than many smaller ones? Considering that many more deaths of the smaller animals are needed and all.


You devastated me with that one over my beloved whitebait!

Depends upon what criteria you are using, of course.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 06:16 pm
@dlowan,
Indeed, it's a rough one for my criteria (least suffering) and whaling though. Almost makes whaling seem almost noble in comparison to eating chickens.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 06:24 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Indeed, it's a rough one for my criteria (least suffering) and whaling though. Almost makes whaling seem almost noble in comparison to eating chickens.


We need to know how much whales suffer and how much chickens suffer to know that one, though.

Let's face it...if we were both REALLY serious about least suffering, we'd be vegetarians.

Here's an interesting one. We know that whales have a culture, at least to some extent, and that, as long-lived animals, the older whales are important to the continuation of that culture.

Elephants ditto...and to an extent that is much clearer (eg young male elephants deprived of senior bull influence behave very destructively...almost "crazily"...and herds deprived of their matriarch do very badly, unless there are very senior animals to take their place)

What about taking animal culture into account?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 06:48 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Is it morally superior to eat one large animal than many smaller ones? Considering that many more deaths of the smaller animals are needed and all.

Other things being equal, yes. But other things needn't be equal. If I have reason to believe that the small animals are less conscious, less self-aware, or less capable of feeling pain than the big ones, then it might be morally superior to eat the smaller ones. For example, I suppose a pound of shrimp causes less pain overall than a pound of beef.

That said, a pound of beef is probably superior to a pound of bunny. And I'm not just saying this to suck up to deb.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 06:49 pm
@Thomas,
even in australia?

This is conjecture. I don't know anything about rabbits in australia except they are in plenitude - or do I know that? So, ignorant. Let's say rabbits are sometimes fierce abundant pests, and cattle are raised by eagle eyed owners on ranches of smart or sucky procedures.

I've known some rabbits personally, yes, in labs (and I found one older one a home) and some cattle in my youth, in stockyards and on ranches.

I am less inclined to eat either. But.. if I ever get to Paris, I'll eat Foie gras. I can say this, since I'll never get there.

The deal is, that I get humans need for protein, and so on. It's the non-natural production that seems half cocked, while economically swell.

I was around at an early part of it - when I was a teen, my father made an industrial movie for Armour, that I would slam sideways from sunday now. That is how I saw those stockyards.

Some time later I learned the rest of the world ate way less meat, if they ate meat at all. That has made more sense.


Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 06:49 pm
@dlowan,
Indeed, we need to take into account the amount of suffering. Thing is, I really do think chickens make up the difference through sheer volume when compared against whales.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 07:10 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

even in australia?

In Australia, I'd probably hunt Cangoroos. Are they tasty?
lazymon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 07:17 pm
I think all things are good for food, nutrition and survival. I also think it would be a good idea to minimize suffering of animals. Animals after all do feel pain just as we do. Having the knowledge of their pain and being the ones with power to stop or continue this pain makes us as humans accountable.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 07:18 pm
@Thomas,
Ask dad..

oh, and I agree with Robert on the chickens. I gather they are taken as monumentally dumb, but, so what.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 07:23 pm
@lazymon,
I'll agree with that. Various societies have killed chickens for how long? I've no idea, but some of that was humane, perhaps for efficiency reasons.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 08:02 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I'll agree with that. Various societies have killed chickens for how long? I've no idea, but some of that was humane, perhaps for efficiency reasons.

I'm pretty sure the same could be said of slavery. Societies have been having it since forever, and some of is was humane.
William
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 08:05 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

This is a topic coming from the discussions on whaling for me, but that is also influenced by other controversies such as the eating of dogs and cats.

If you believe that some animals should not be eaten, can you provide an abstracted criteria that can govern food ethics as it relates to species?

For example, if you don't think dogs should be eaten, try to think of the why (e.g. they are intelligent, charismatic). Also try to see if this rule can be applied consistently (e.g. if intelligence is your rule and pigs are more intelligent than dogs would you stop eating pigs?).

If the matter is merely subjective and can't be objective (e.g. charisma) do you accept consensus as a criteria for the ethics? That is, if a quorum of society objects to a species being eaten based on subjective criteria do you accept this as a mandate for the authority needed to prevent the others from eating that species?


Hello Robert, It seems what we can't domesticate, we eat. Ha! I sincerely think there is a diet that is better for us; we just haven't found it yet. I care for humans more than I do for animals. Hard to imagine when one thinks of all the carnage us humans have caused, huh? That's why we have a tendency to love animals we can domesticate as we do. If it were a child vs. any animal, that animal is dead meat. Later if that child becomes contaminated and many do, and is then known as an adult, it's seems easier to think otherwise.

I think our "tastes" have become tantalized to the extent we don't have a clue as to what "tastes good" means. The same goes with "good tastes", ha! Delicious is where it;s at and nutritious is out the window. Yuck! Once we stop competing for those "taste buds" and get serious about nutrition, then we might appreciate that food we are meant to eat better.

I am not for eating domesticated animals. Not at all. Now they are loving surrogates; and will be as long as we are the savages we still are. We are a long way from having a real understanding of what "civilized" means.

Just a note, I have been told a cat cannot be domesticated; they only hang around because we feed them. They are natural predators. A dog will stay by our side no matter what. If we don't feed them, they would starve to death right there at our feet. No I couldn't eat a dog, but a cat; who would want too?

As far as those animals we do eat, cows, chickens, pigs, goats, lambs and fish, I can't imagine anything else they are good for. We use there meat, hide and hair to sustain us. If we didn't, can you imagine a world over run with them? If you say there are those who domesticate pigs (pot bellied variety that was popular at one time) then all I can say it "they" are a little strange. Who would want to domesticate a "pig"? I don't think I would care to give up my bar b q ribs.
As for as whales and dolphins, out of the question. They are good for something and until we find out what that is, if we ever will, they should always be protected until then. Talk about "family oriented". They could teach us a thing or two.
Once we put more emphasis on ourselves becoming more civilized, i think we might out grow our love for any animal and put that love where it rightly belongs.

William
 

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