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Creator and creation; two sides of the same coin?

 
 
Cyracuz
 
Reply Fri 23 Oct, 2009 09:32 am
I am playing with this idea that infinite possibility can manifest to us as an indication of an intelligence that is responsible for the creation and unfolding of our the universe.

If we think of the universe as the sum of all comonents in it, we can say that it is self regulating. The limits and possibilites that exist are set by these components. The idea is that to an entity born within this unfolding process, looking back at it, it can easily look like there was some purpose behind it all...
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,206 • Replies: 16
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dyslexia
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Oct, 2009 09:39 am
@Cyracuz,
it can also just look like an inkblot.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Oct, 2009 10:17 am
@Cyracuz,
I think Aristotle tried that line of reasoning. One problem with his premises was that he assumed "time" to be infinite which "big bang" theory negates.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 07:25 am
@fresco,
That old statement we learned in school; that the sum of energy in the universe is constant... If that still holds true it makes it hard for me to see how the big band brought more of it, or how it could ever disappear... Makes more sense to me to think of the big bang as a turning point in a cycle rather than an absolute beginning.

I am on a computer which has no backspace button and no questionmark. If it had I would have used them Smile
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 08:47 am
@Cyracuz,
The "zero sum" aspect of "the universe" is handled by postulating negative entities to balance positive ones (hence "anti-matter" etc) It might be interesting to speculate on " a creator" being balanced by " an anti-creator" (Satan perhaps !) Wink
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 09:18 am
The big mistake is giving human purpose to the universe, in the absense of any evidence that it is so.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 09:28 am
@edgarblythe,
Yes, that is what this thread is about.

I mean, if we are what we are today as a result of a development that eventually led to this outcome, even if it was a pure result of chance and chaos, then wouldn't we, looking back at this development see a sting of events that gradually opened up the possibility of our existence?

I can understand how a person who puts too much importance on human existence would mistake this as evidence of a purpose that we are the fullfillment of.

The way I see it, this planet wasn't changed into something that can support life so that life could come into existence. That's rather backwards.
Instead, I think that when this planet altered into a place where life could be sustained, a possibility opened; the possibility of life. And then it happened, just because it could. And just because the oportunity was present, it evolved until it was what it is today. Looking back at that, and not thinking in terms of oportunity, but in terms of purpose, I can understand how it may seem that our coming into existence was part of a great scheme. I can see how some may believe that, but I don't believe it myself.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 09:31 am
Edgar wrote:
The big mistake is giving human purpose to the universe,


Anthropomorphizing..

Religions are good at that..
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 09:55 am
I tend to think of the universe as an overly large compost pile with spontaneous combustion as a result of primordial soup contaminated by microbial organisms. But then, I'm an optimist.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 09:58 am
@dyslexia,
And the soup is no good, he?
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 10:00 am
@Francis,
tepid gazpacho.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 10:01 am
@dyslexia,
That leaves me cold...
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 10:02 am
@Francis,
frigid?
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 10:09 am
@dyslexia,
Never!

Gazpacho must be cold.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 10:49 am
@Francis,
at dinner last night I was served Vino Verde, it was room temperature. Not only that, the gamberi scampi was served with red sauce pasta. the minestrone was pretty good though.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 10:57 am
@dyslexia,
Vino Verde at room temperature? Only in America..

However, I praise your culinary choices.

(Sorry guys, for the side tracking...)
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 01:59 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
The big mistake is giving human purpose to the universe, in the absense of any evidence that it is so


Unfortunately for us atheists, this is a tautology. Both "evidence" and "mistakes" lie in the eye of the beholder. It might be better to fall back to Occam's Razor which eliminates the need to postuate "a creator" as an extraneous axiom in "nature", which appears to operate as a non-linear system giving rise to spontaneous transient complex structures. (Reference here to Prigogine's work in chemical dynamics).
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