@Always Eleven to him,
Kuvasz wrote:
Quote:the rules discussed [by lawyers] are simply made up and are not universally true like mathematics,
[but] lawyers consider them to be objectively real.
Always Eleven to him wrote:
Quote:The laws themselves are real, not made up. But unlike the syllogistic logic of math or science,
which involves an absolutely true major premise and an absolutely true minor premise
leading to an absolutely true conclusion, formulating the major
and minor premises in legal reasoning means that you try to formulate premises
that are the most probably true.
So legal argument is more properly said to be based on the enthymeme, not the syllogism.[ ?? ]
The results of that are
Kafkaesque and void for vagueness.
American citizens have a right not to be plagued by any law
that has not been articulated. Law is supposed to be
PREDICTABLE.
No citizen shoud fear being ruled by a law that is incomprehensible.
Always Eleven to him wrote:
Quote:Many legal arguments involve asking the court to say just what the law is.
To do that, lawyers comb through the courts' earlier decisions to formulate
the rule that is the most probably true one. The courts' earlier decisions
may have stated the rule somewhat differently through time.
Lawyers must track the changes to the rule to get the one that's the most probably true.
The courts want to "get it right." So the courts strive to find the rule that's the most probably true rule.
Then they apply that rule to the new facts they've been presented with,
and the rule applied to those facts is the new rule that people must follow.
The intellectually honest judges will do that: they state and apply the rules
and let the rules lead them to their results.
Only the intellectually honest opinion will gain the confidence of those who must follow it.
From this notion, I must respectfully
dissent.
There is wide variation in principle as to how judges
perceive both the law and the facts.
It is not unusual for cases to be overturned on the law
and then reversed again upon further appeal on the law.
To that we add the observed fact (MY observed fact)
that not only litigants, but also professional counsel
are very capable of falling in love with their cases,
and love is blind; objectivity is lost.
To a surprising degree, people will believe
what it is to their advantage to believe.
It is paradigmatic for the parties and their respective counsel
to be present each in the fullness of confidence of prevailing
on both fact and law, and therefore, refusing to settle.
Always Eleven to him wrote:
Quote:The intellectually dishonest judges (and lawyers) will start
with the result they want and work their way backwards to
find "rules" that will support that result. Some people call that "advocacy."
True advocacy, however, involves looking at the existing rules
and applying them to the facts -- all of the facts -- to predict or
advocate for the result that logically flows from them.
That is, the advocate must honestly assess the law and the facts,
and with that assessment in mind, advise the client.
In private, yes.
Always Eleven to him wrote:
Quote:The court rules allow an advocate to argue for a change in the law.
The advocate must make that argument in good faith.
(Sure that opens the door to intellectual dishonesty, but the good
judges see through the bullshit,) If that good-faith argument
for change weren't available, we would never have moved past
"separate but equal" facilities for persons of different races, genders, etc.
Does this sound Pollyannaish? Yeah, probably.
It sounds like judicial legislation.
Incidentally, u refer to "the good judges";
how do u handle it if u have bad judges?
Always Eleven to him wrote:
Quote:But I prefer knowing that predictable results lead to stability.
Most respectfully, that
disproves the wisdom
of your
rejection of law resting upon clearly defined syllogism. (see below)
Quoth 11:
Quote:But unlike the syllogistic logic of math or science,
which involves an absolutely true major premise and an absolutely
true minor premise leading to an absolutely true conclusion,
formulating the major and minor premises in legal reasoning
means that you try to formulate premises that are the most
probably true.
So legal argument is more properly said to be based on the enthymeme, not the syllogism.[ALL EMPHASIS ADDED BY DAVID]
Always Eleven to him wrote:
Quote:And I prefer knowing that when the laws need to change,
advocates can promote those changes, and the intellectually honest judges will make them.
The proper judicial function is to dispassionately apply pre-existing law, unless
he finds it in conflict with a higher law, e.g. a constitution.
If an intellectually honest judge wishes to change the law
then he shoud resign from office and run for election to the legislature.
David