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Why Did Roman Polanski Run Away?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:12 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
French penal code

Any act of sexual penetration, whatever its nature, committed against another person by violence, constraint, threat or surprise, is rape. Rape is punished by a maximum of fifteen years' criminal imprisonment.

Rape is punished by a maximum of twenty years' criminal imprisonment in certain aggarvating factors (including victim under age of 15).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape

but that is today..what was the law in 1978?? MAX 20 years!!! that would be a min in America right now. Was what Polanski did even considered rape in France?? I would not make that assumption.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:14 pm
@engineer,
Unlawful sexual intercourse

In France the law stipulates a maximum of 15 years in jail for a rape on a minor.

The judges have all latitude to adapt the penalty to the case and the average sentencing is 6 years in jail.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:17 pm
@Francis,
Thanks. I went over it twice and missed it both times. So if Polanski got one year in jail based on the other case I posted, would you consider that fair, justice served?
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:20 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Was what Polanski did even considered rape in France?? I would not make that assumption.

Of course I would make that assumption with no hesitation at all. The French care for their children no less than we do.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:20 pm
@engineer,
I would like to know more about this case.

One year is probably not enough..
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:24 pm
@engineer,
Quote:


Between 1977 and 1979, while a change in the French Penal Code was under discussion in the Parliament of France, a number of French intellectuals, including prominent names, signed petitions and open letters defending either the abolition of age of consent laws or the release of individuals arrested under charges of statutory rape

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petitions_against_age_of_consent_laws

the French don't seem too sure about the idea that having sex with a child should be a crime, nor are they that thrilled with the idea of criminalizing sex in general. Sex law in France is a new idea, they did not do it till relatively recently.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
You can find people in the US who might advocate for such changes in the law also, but that doesn't mean it makes it into law.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:29 pm
@engineer,
in Europe the idea has been seriously considered. In America anyone who says such a thing is subject to a lynching from the mob....you can't really be serious when you say that. You are not that ignorant.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:36 pm
@Francis,
Francis wrote:

Unlawful sexual intercourse

In France the law stipulates a maximum of 15 years in jail for a rape on a minor.

The judges have all latitude to adapt the penalty to the case and the average sentencing is 6 years in jail.
I'm not terribly familiar with California, but I'd happily wager $100 that Polanski's total time served will not exceed 6 years. I doubt he'll do half that long.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:46 pm
I think that one of the reasons this is highly emotionally charged is that all of us realize on some level that the age of consent laws are built upon sand. The arguments supporting setting the age as high as America does are very weak, and the laws ignore the factual reality of teen sexuality. Those like bill who support such laws become emotionally unhinged when the laws are challanged in part because they know as well as they rest of us do that they don't have much of an argument
Quote:
In the 1930s, support for setting the age of consent at 16 years or older began to weaken. Characterized by growing economic, social, and cultural independence, girls in their teens assumed a place in western societies quite distinct from that of younger children. New concepts of adolescence and specifically of girlhood normalized sexual activity during the teenage years, at least within peer groups, as "sex play" necessary to achieve adult heterosexuality. Emboldened and influenced by such ideas, girls more often talked of being "in love" with the men charged with having sex with them, and expressed sexual desire. Prosecutors and juries increasingly refused to treat such cases as rape.

Legislators, however, did not reduce the legal age of consent. The resulting tension was reflected in slang, most notably the American term "jailbait," dating from the 1930s, that registered cultural recognition of teenage girls as sexually attractive, even sexually active, but legally unavailable

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
The typical US age of consent in 1880 was 10. All sorts of age of consent laws have been considered all over the world. That doesn't mean they were implemented and it doesn't mean the French are any different than the rest of Europe or the US. The French were among the first countries to codify an age of consent in their legal code and as it spread around Europe, so did age of consent laws. When European countries increased the age of consent in the 19th century, the US did not follow suit. I don't know why you consider the US as a paragon of child safety. History doesn't back this up.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:56 pm
@engineer,
english law had AOC in 1275, the french not till 1791...you sir are factually incorrect .
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230

The French AOC is 15, which is perfectly fine, plus they punish rape much less severely that Americans do, which is also fine. In fact in American law rape is much like the death penalty, out of line with the rest of the developed world.

My position is that it is we who are wrong, not the rest of the world.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 04:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

My position is that it is we who are wrong, not the rest of the world.

I misunderstood then. Sorry.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 04:25 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I think that one of the reasons this is highly emotionally charged is that all of us realize on some level that the age of consent laws are built upon sand. The arguments supporting setting the age as high as America does are very weak, and the laws ignore the factual reality of teen sexuality.


When I asked you where you want to draw the line you said 15 or 16. This girl was 13.

Make up your mind, you are all over the place.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 04:30 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Bullshit, I said that Polanski was wrong and should have been rung up in 1978. I have not contradicted myself at all. AOC should be 15, though I could go with 16 as an effort to go the extra mile to protect slow developing teens, but anything over 16 is not supportable.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 04:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
You aren't making any sense. The age of consent in California is 16 (for any real penalty)*, so why do you keep going on about how bad our age of consent laws are in this case?

It's like you don't even notice that the line is pretty much where you claim to draw it yourself. The victim is also much younger than where you claim to draw the line, so what are you on about?

*see the text of the law below:

Quote:
Any person 21 years of age or older who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor who is under 16 years of age is guilty of either a misdemeanor or a felony, and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 04:45 pm
@Robert Gentel,
in this case AOC is the prism through which we see how the Europeans and the Americans have different ideas about teen sexuality and the criminality of such. We got to this point by arguing the extradition of Polanski from Europe to face a likely punishment that is outrageous by European sensibilities might be grounds to refuse to extradite him, on the grounds that the europeans have already developed the legal requirements to refuse to hand over to America people who will subject to unreasonable punishment (the death penalty).

My main point is that justice is no longer obtainable on the sex charge thus should be dropped or else considered finished with time served. If the Americans want to ring him up for running then they need to file new charges. Otherwise this is over.

Please try to follow along Robert....I know that you are a smart guy.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 06:04 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
in this case AOC is the prism through which we see how the Europeans and the Americans have different ideas about teen sexuality and the criminality of such.


What are you on about? You said the line should be 15, the victim was 13. And it wasn't consensual either.

If you say there should be a line, then there should be punishment for crossing it. But then you sometimes acknowledge this, when you say he should have been punished back the 70s. Thing is, that's his own fault that he wasn't, it doesn't make sense to not punish the criminals just because they run away.

So yes, you are all over the place, and you aren't logically consistent.

Quote:
We got to this point by arguing the extradition of Polanski from Europe to face a likely punishment that is outrageous by European sensibilities might be grounds to refuse to extradite him, on the grounds that the europeans have already developed the legal requirements to refuse to hand over to America people who will subject to unreasonable punishment (the death penalty).


This really has nothing at all to do with arguments against extraditing Polanski. He isn't going to face the death penalty and our laws on sentencing aren't very discordant with Europe's on the matter. Again, you are all over the place, just aping the same old arguments you always make about sex laws, while admitting to not actually following what said laws are.

For example, how about explaining how our sentencing would be unreasonable to Europeans? I don't think you have any real idea what the difference in sentencing for this kind of crime would be. The majority of French people want him extradited. And Poland is making laws mandating chemical castration for pedophiles.

The notion that this is European rejection of unreasonable American punishment is simply baseless.


Quote:
My main point is that justice is no longer obtainable on the sex charge thus should be dropped or else considered finished with time served.


I know, and that isn't logically consistent with your claims that you want there to be a line that excludes 13-year-olds from sexual predation.

Quote:
If the Americans want to ring him up for running then they need to file new charges. Otherwise this is over.


False. Just because he ran does not mean the original charges go away.

Quote:
Please try to follow along Robert....I know that you are a smart guy.


This is an emperor's new clothes argument trying to cover up that you aren't making any sense.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 06:45 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
If you say there should be a line, then there should be punishment for crossing it. But then you sometimes acknowledge this, when you say he should have been punished back the 70s. Thing is, that's his own fault that he wasn't, it doesn't make sense to not punish the criminals just because they run away


if you can evade the law long enough that justice is not longer possible then you should be free. This is not a strange idea, this is what the statutes of limitations are all about. It is our fault that we did not catch up with Polanski before now, we failed justice. But he should not take the fall for our collective failure

Quote:
He isn't going to face the death penalty and our laws on sentencing aren't very discordant with Europe's on the matter.


we have already shown that our sex law punishment is outrageous by European standards...you have no legs to stand on here

Quote:
The majority of French people want him extradited

This is true, and he will be, but shame on the French, Swiss and Polish for being on the wrong side of justice.

Quote:

I know, and that isn't logically consistent with your claims that you want there to be a line that excludes 13-year-olds from sexual predation.


it is totally logical, a crime was committed, which should have been punished, the case was not finished but now can't be done with fairness to Polanski so therefor it should be over. No where in there is your oft repeated claims that I don't think that a crime was committed...I started out with that stipulation

Quote:
False. Just because he ran does not mean the original charges go away

They should except in cases of crimes against humanity or high treason, in my opinion. If we were a better people these charges would have been dropped when we got to the point that we could no longer be fair to Polanski.


Quote:
This is an emperor's new clothes argument trying to cover up that you aren't making any sense.


I am not making sense to YOU. However, it is totally logical that your listening or thinking is the problem, not my argument.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 06:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

good question. Obviously some sort of demeaning personal label since Bill routinely
can't come up with good arguments and thus resort to throwing **** fits.
Is it at all POSSIBLE for u (and anyone else)
to stop directing our attention into excrement? This is not a discussion of sanitation.
0 Replies
 
 

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