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Old testement

 
 
Texan
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 03:23 pm
As you can see, I'm a newbie. I've read a lot of posts on many of these forums to get a feel for content and depth of discussion. The religion forums perked my interest among others.

So here goes my first "new topic" endeaver. Be nice to me because remember I'm a virgin. If anything like this has been posted before, just let me know and I will cease and desist. Idea

I read the Old and New testament some 25 year ago and have been an agnostic ever since. At the time of Adam and Eve, there was no written language and probably no oral language. The people that followed them were highly superstistious and saw events through uneducated eyes and were awed by things that you and I take for granted, i. e. the Moon, Sun, Stars, Earth, Water, fire, thunder, lightening, earthquakes, etc., etc. and etc.

Being superstitous and having no written language, their understanding of this things was beyond them. Once a rudimentary language was developed, these natural occurences were pasted down generation to generation to generation ad infinitum. We can't even begin to imagine the embellishments that occured. Once the written language slowly developed, these stories were written down and retranslated for many generations to come.

As a result of the above, they began by worhshiping the Moon, Sun, Earth, stars, water, e. g. anything they could not understand. Then came the false deities and so on and so forth.

Now came the New testament. Most of the above applies here, i. e. superstition, illiteracy, etc. A sheppard out flocking his sheep night after night after nigh is boring, boring, boring. He sees things that he does not understand and with nothing else to do, his mind starts to create reasons and explanations of these heretofore unexplained happenings. Again, his concocted explanations are passed down generation to generation until someone records the embellished account of what occured.

I guess my question is how could anyone believe more than 10% of what the KJ's version states.

Christians have a very large garbage can! When a house burns down and five children and and pregnant woman are burned to death, if you ask a Christian how a loving God could allow this to happen, the reply is always "God works in mysterious ways." "God works in mysterious ways" is their garbage can that allows them to put everything that is unexplainable or totally illogical into. Think how many times a Christian uses that term to answer a question of how could a loving God allow such and such to happen. That is the largest garbage can that the world will ever experience.

I think that the wrath of God is about to come down on me for all I have written. So, who is gonna be first?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 04:07 pm
Welcome to A2K.

Your heart seems to be in the right place, Texan. And as a fellow agnostic, I have the same questions as the ones you pose.

Somehow, I doubt you are going to get much in the way of heated dissent.

Hope you stick around.

This is an excellent forum.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 04:26 pm
Re: Old testement
Texan wrote:
Christians have a very large garbage can! When a house burns down and five children and and pregnant woman are burned to death, if you ask a Christian how a loving God could allow this to happen, the reply is always "God works in mysterious ways."

No, not always. Indeed, not often. Through the centuries, Christians have come up with a variety of solutions to the dilemma of a "good God permitting evil to exist" that didn't involve an anodyne "God works in mysterious ways."

Now, did you want to discuss this issue, Texan, or did you just want to vent?
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Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 08:18 pm
Hello texan, welcome to a2k.
I think you'll find the "God works in mysterious ways" in every religion ever made up, it's not specific to christians by any means.
As for the bible, it's a story book, meant to teach morals and laws of a specific time and people. There is absolutly nothing logical about any religion. That is why faith is pushed, normally the blinder the better.
Ceili
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 08:35 pm
The Torah was probably written down for the first time in the mid to late 6th century BCE. The later books of Torah were probably composed in the 1st century CE. As such, it is a codification of oral traditon,and is a good source to observe how various proprietary tribal gods (the Yahwist stories) merge with propriatary urban gods (The Elohist stories) and with imported traditions (Babylonian, Akkadian, Egyptian,etc...). All these were then Hellenized to appeal to a more educated Urban audience. Fascinating stuff. Smile
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 05:10 am
Texan- I think that you will discover that there are many like minded individuals on A2K, who believe as you do.

I personally have a huge respect for the Bible, for what it is. To me, it is an attempt, by primitive peoples, to create a history, philosophy, and ethical structure, based on a lot less knowledge of the world than we do today.

For years I thought of myself as an athiest. Then I realized that there is no real way of knowing, one way or the other, whether or not there is a deity. So at this point in my life, I realize that the entire concept of a God is of no real concern to me, except in those areas where other people's religion is foisted on me!
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 06:36 am
Hiya Texan, and welcome! I do indeed think you will find allies here. Just to stir the pot a little, I would say that both statements: "God works in mysterious ways" AND "Christians have come up with a variety of solutions to the dilemma of a "good God permitting evil to exist" are excuses for humans not wanting to accept responsibility for the world they have created around them.
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Texan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 07:33 am
Howdy Apisa, Joe, Ceili, Hobit, Phoenix and Cav. I agree with everything each of you have added.

Now that it is firmly established that we are intelligent, open-minded and deep thinkers, what is wrong with those religious nuts that they don't see the world through our eyes? Just kidding a little! I guess its the ole bell shaped curve at work.

I for one would like to know the absolute truth about this subject as would probably everyone else. I don't like being agnostic, I can't be an atheist or a believer which sometimes makes me feel a little out of place if you will.

The only thing that I can hang my hat on is that I try to lead the most honest life that I can and, yes, do unto others.... A very dear friend of my, actually an old friend of my parents who are long deceased, is one of those religious nuts who constantly uses the phrase "God works in mysterious ways" to explain anything and everything that is illogical. This categorization is like a huge garbage can that holds everything that could possibly make her question her beliefs.

Perhaps we are discussing a subject like some riddles that have no answers because not enough is known or the riddle is mis-stated from the onset. I know when I be out flocking my sheep at night, I show am mazed.

And how bout dat big bang? I sure wish I had been there to see it!
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 07:40 am
Frank is our resident expert on agnosticism, he'll clear up yer doubts about it fast. Wink Tempt him and he'll talk about it ad nauseaum, but he has great insight into it as a life choice, and it's always worth listening to.
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Texan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 08:12 am
Cav, I've seen a lot of Frank's posts and you are right about his insight. For some reason, I thought he was from downunder.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 08:15 am
IT is funny that an all-knowing BUT mysterious God should even be questioned. The scenario you mention, Texan, "Why should God allow this to happen?" is a plea for understanding the way of the world, not the way of God... the way of Heaven. It is a problem, I think, when people constantly try to question whatever they consider to be God, and especially bring him/her/it into their everyday world. Very Happy A little rationality (Why should God etc.. etc..) pasted onto the unknown is, in the end, pretty darn silly.
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yeahman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 08:37 am
the new testament it was written by eyewitnesses or disciples of the eyewitnesses. it wasn't "passed down generation to generation."
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 08:40 am
I still find it high-larious that people feel the need for religious doctrine to convince them to just treat people right. Well, that was the original purpose...now it seems that the more religion you get, the more you treat people like shite, and so it has been since the dawn of 'organized' i.e. 'politicized' religion.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 08:51 am
yep, Cav... Sometimes it seems like religion is set up just so people don't have to treat "others" well. It is the perfect way, the perfect excuse, to separate those we are good to and those we can enslave.... "GOD" says it is OK, right?
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Texan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 01:10 pm
I stumped a car load of Jahovah Witnesses once that had knocked on my front door to do their usual. After listening to thieir sales pitch, I asked one of them why their buildings had no windows. I figured it had something to do with the religion and was just curious as to what it might be. They all looked at each other and could not come up with a reason. Finally one of them said it reduces maintenance expense. Duh.

What is the strangest, weirdest, dumbest, etc. message on a church marsquis that you have ever seen. I just thought of this on my way from visiting with the 3rd grader that I mentor each week. I saw one that said "prey harder when its harder to prey." I've seen some strange messages before but none comes to mind.

Does anyone know the answer to my query in paraghaph one? I'd really like to know.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 01:39 pm
I for one would have a problem providing an answer to your first query, as it presuposses that biblical stories are true. However, I would agree that humans invented these fairy tales originally to explain things they did not understand.
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rufio
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 01:46 pm
I saw a church sign once, a little after Matrix 1 came out that said "Jesus is cooler than the Matrix". I don't know if it was a plug to get kids to go to church instead of the movies, or if it was in accordance with the Christian theme of the movie.

Anyway.

The OT was actually a collection of fairy stories, political agendas, and myths that was assembled circa 1000-800 BC (or maybe earlier). There were at least 4 different authors as far as is known so far, which is why a lot of things were written twice. Northern Israel and Judah, which, at the time, were separate entities (the Assyrians invaded and changed that in 782 BC), had different theories about traditional stories like Adam and Eve, the great flood, and other things like the name of God. Other people came later with other interpretations and those got thrown in too. To prevent disunion, someone painstakingly peiced everything together into a semi-logical format and made it into one book. It wasn't all myths though - The Golden Calf Story was a political statement written by a Levite Preist about the religious establishment in Judah, and Dueteronomy was written to justify the kingship of King Josiah to the people at large. You'll notice that Aaron does a lot of bad things in the OT but never suffers punishment - Aaron was a Judean hero, and many of the stories, like the golden calf and snow-white Miriam were slander written by Northern Isrealites (probably the same Levite Priest). Of course, the history was the Aaron was never punished, since he became a priest - therefore that was never included. Think of them as revisionist histories.

Does that answer your question?
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Texan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 01:56 pm
Cav, what does "as it presuposses that biblical stories are true. " mean in reference to my query. And Rufio.... What is OT and anything in that paragraph have to do with my post. I realize that I have not learned this forum's jargon yet, but please educate me.
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Texan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 01:57 pm
Cav, what does "as it presuposses that biblical stories are true. " mean in reference to my query. And Rufio.... What is OT and anything in that paragraph have to do with my post. I realize that I have not learned this forum's jargon yet, but please educate me.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 02:02 pm
So you think that was strange, Texan? Listen to this one -- and I swear (can't swear to god 'cause I'm agnostic) it is the truth.

Two Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door -- and after I let them know I am agnostic, they prevail on me to let them come in for a few minutes and at least discuss things.

In idle conversation, I had mentioned that my best guess was that the Bible was pure fiction when it came to its theology -- and one of them asked me for some reasons why I said that.

So I cited the passage from Leviticus 25:44 where the god of the Bible says that owning and trafficking in slaves was okay with him. I averred that my guess was that a GOD would not do that.

One of the two was obviously the talker -- the other was a learner of some sort -- and said almost nothing. The talker kept trying to change the subject, but I was insistent and kept coming back to the Leviticus passage. Both guys were African Americans and I thought that particular passage would resonate with them.

After my third return to the passage -- the quiet one spoke up.

"I know why the Lord said it was okay to own slaves," he proclaimed.

The talker looked at him with a bit of apprehension on his face as I asked, "Okay. Tell me. Why did your lord say it was okay to own slaves."

"Because somebody had to do the work," came the reply.

Well, I try to be as courteous as possible to anyone I invite into my house, but I goddam near choked on my laughter.

"You gotta be kidding me...," I started, preparing to mention that southern cotton plantation owners in 17th and 18th century felt that same way to the distinct detriment of my two guests -- but talker was way ahead of me.

He never missed a beat.

He picked up that little satchel they all carry; looked at his watch; and said, "Ya know, I just remembered that we were supposed to meet a couple of our colleagues -- so we gotta be going."

And out the door they went.

Funny thing. That happened over two years ago - and I see Jehovah's Witnesses around our neighborhood all the time these days. But they just don't knock on our door any more.
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