What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

@Diest TKO,

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Don't get selective with your memory now, Gala. The only reason I shared that info was to illustrate the counter to YOUR statement that men were obsessed with women's virginity or that they mystified it. It was not to brag, and if anything, they were both pretty negitive experiences for me in the long run. And guess why? Because the woman (not the man as you had claimed) mystified the experience!

You still don't understand-- you portray yourself as a ultra- sensitive guy who somehow got cornered into this experience (twice). I don't know what you were thinking to undertake such an arduous task twice, however, there had to have been something in it for you.

What did the two virgins want from you? Sexual expertise? The promise of enduring love? Monogomy? What was it that made it so negative for you?

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@Diest TKO,

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You poor thing.

That's how a lot of women talk when stumped.

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@Diest TKO,

Diest - did you find many young women who were interested in wellness education requested a female wellness educator?

Was that an option? Could they request a gender specific wellness educator?

1 Reply

@spendius,

I'm just catching up on this thread. You've made some pretty interesting assertions yourself- such as this:

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You are not even aware that my presence on those threads is due entirely to it being a feminist proposition to dump on Christianity and they think they have found some science with which to justify it. It has nothing to do with science or evolution. Those are merely convenient sticks to beat Christianity with. My opponents are mere dupes who are not aware of the basic sub-text.

So farmerman, ci, lightwizard, ros and the rest of the crew are active components of a 'feminist proposition to dump on Christianity'?
How so?

Diest said you sounded insecure a few posts back. And I think you do sometimes. You say things like this:

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What would any sensible woman do with a bloke "hooked for good", under "control" and "positively addicted"? Some flogging sounds in order once money draining has reached its limits and if you kept up to date at the cutting edge that activity is increasing at an alarming enough rate to make me fear for the young lads.

and never mind that it paints women in such a negative light, I always wonder that you don't understand that you could just as easily change the assigned genders in statement like that and it would still be true - especially in this day and age when women work and do often provide at least half the income:
One could just as easily say-
'What would any sensible man do with a woman 'hooked for good', 'under control' and 'positively addicted'? ...blah, blah, blah... because a lot of women ARE 'hooked for good, 'under control' and 'positively addicted' to men and what good does THAT end up doing THEM?

Do men not understand that heterosexual women like them just as much as heterosexual men like women?

Do you give yourself so little credit? Do you really think it's only about a paycheck and favorable genetics?
And you call everyone else a Darwinist.

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@aidan,

Come on Rebecca. Have you not seen TK in those pics he put on A2K of him on his London trip when he had Queenie showing him the sights.

He's a handsome dude. In that Barbara Cartland hero fashion you might have heard about. And he has prospects which he has ways of hinting at bluntly.

I bet they were running in with invented problems just so they could hear him tell them authoritatively what to do. I bet they were saying--"Oooow, ooow- have you seen the Wellness Educator?--I feel all faint already. Dishy. oooow oooow. "

They certainly could request a gswe and I think it likely they would get one unless TK claimed sexism and got his name in the papers in some legal melee.

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@spendius,

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Come on Rebecca. Have you not seen TK in those pics he put on A2K of him on his London trip when he had Queenie showing him the sights.

He's a handsome dude. In that Barbara Cartland hero fashion you might have heard about. And he has prospects which he has ways of hinting at bluntly.

I bet they were running in with invented problems just so they could hear him tell them authoritatively what to do. I bet they were saying--"Oooow, ooow- have you seen the Wellness Educator?--I feel all faint already. Dishy. oooow oooow. "

You think you know all women, and you accuse Diest of the same sort of bravado, and in all actuality, you have no idea.
I can only speak for myself, but if I were attracted to someone- the absolute LAST thing I'd do is present myself to him as a problem- any sort of problem. If I liked someone, or thought they were cute, I'd not want them to think of me as clueless about diet and exercise or how to get to sleep or unable to function and adapt to my surroundings.
Needy is not very attractive (in my book).

So the LAST wellness educator I'd go to, and present myself as needy, or needing anything really would be the male wellness educator I thought was the most attractive - okay?

But maybe other girls are different - who knows.

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@aidan,

Quote:

So farmerman, ci, lightwizard, ros and the rest of the crew are active components of a 'feminist proposition to dump on Christianity'?
How so?

That is my position--yes. I think the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. I've gone through it on those threads pretty comprehensively. I think the gents concerned are unaware of their role. Saps in other words. The science side has seduced them with its bigwordisms and those reverent tones of certainty you hear on science programmes. To an audience, at a reception or party, which knows no science apart from how to turn the light on, they can hold forth on a very thin veneer of scientific knowledge. I know--I've done it often enough myself. It is seductive. And far be it from me to spoil their fun. But they want to interfere in schools. Now that's serious stuff Rebecca. And the direction they wish to take schools is right up the feminist street.

I just wish they would declare that for one year women could have everything they asked for. By law.

They have us heading up a street towards they know not what. And anybody who thinks that Mrs Average is in the swim is sadly mistaken.

It is because Christianity is in opposition to the liberal agenda regarding sexual matters that it is being targeted. Evolution and science are the sticks to beat it with.

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Diest said you sounded insecure a few posts back. And I think you do sometimes.

I am insecure. Who isn't? But I'm too old to be really insecure for myself. I imagine I'm a young man looking at the prospects now with the eyes and ears attuned to the prospects of another era. And it looks dire. And it didn't then.

And don't forget Rebecca that I was commenting on the ads, which have been paid for with good money, as good as that in your purse. That's objective evidence of the direction and it is nothing new--it is well underway. There's no ads like that on NFL threads.

And the process didn't suddenly freeze this evening: it is dynamic. And, as in any war, the little victory leads to greater ones and so forth because I can't see feminists saying " okay we have enough equality and we don't want anything else". Can you?

If you changed the genders in my statement it wouldn't work. I know a few blokes like the controlled, hooked and positively addicted woman but I don't think they are a large number. And I think they would soon get fed up with it. We certainly don't see those in ads except ones with heavy irony. But how often do we see controlling women. If they were ironic the product wouldn't sell. One wouldn't demonstrate a scented underarm disinfectant spray on a Margaret Rutherford type who had never shaved. Which is sexist in some ways. It shows not all the sisters are equal.

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Do men not understand that heterosexual women like them just as much as heterosexual men like women?

I don't think so. It would like throwing your aces away.

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And you call everyone else a Darwinist.

I do not. I have claimed to be the only Darwinist on those threads. Thanks for confirming it.

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@aidan,

Aidan, you have proven, from what I have read in your posts, that you have a sensibility and balance to make reasonable decisions.

However, spendius makes a very important point about looks and how vulnerable, and perhaps, not so vulnerable young women will make an effort to see the wellness educator.

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@Gala,

And it's impossible now to exaggerate the importance of "looks".

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@aidan,

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I can only speak for myself, but if I were attracted to someone- the absolute LAST thing I'd do is present myself to him as a problem- any sort of problem.

Perhaps you have never been attracted to a man you needed an excuse to meet. I once gave a short series of lectures to a class of ladies' hairdressers on dye. Two of them sat on the front row with their knees apart. Lookers too. They cajoled me into having my hair pampered on one of my afternoons off so they could practice. I knew a woman who couldn't keep away from her dentist.

And TK had a campus full to go at. All at the peak of their powers. It's a myth about women peaking in their late thirties put about by women in their late thirties. Why would evolution have us peak out of synchronisation?

How would you go about meeting the WE you were attracted to in a large campus as a student. I should imagine 90% never even laid eyes on him.

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@spendius,

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Why would evolution have us peak out of synchronisation?

You're talking of evolution as if it actually designed things.

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@aidan,

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So the LAST wellness educator I'd go to, and present myself as needy, or needing anything really would be the male wellness educator I thought was the most attractive - okay?

Ditto.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

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So the LAST wellness educator I'd go to, and present myself as needy, or needing anything really would be the male wellness educator I thought was the most attractive - okay?

Ditto.

Not I. If I thought he was attractive I'd figure out a way to make another appointment, that is, if he truly could help me.

And, just because you go to a WE may mean you're in need of something but not necessarily needy. Colleges/Universities provide all sorts of outlets for students to get through their education.

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@Gala,

Really?
Yeah maybe you could think up some minor issue and then casually ask for help with it.

What about: 'I haven't got a boyfriend and need help to maintain a healthy and active sex life.'

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@spendius,

Quote:

That is my position--yes. I think the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. I've gone through it on those threads pretty comprehensively. I think the gents concerned are unaware of their role. Saps in other words. The science side has seduced them with its bigwordisms and those reverent tones of certainty you hear on science programmes. To an audience, at a reception or party, which knows no science apart from how to turn the light on, they can hold forth on a very thin veneer of scientific knowledge.

I don't think very many discerning readers are fooled into believing anything other than that they know exactly the same amount that any of us can know from study and reading - and that's nowhere near everything.

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But they want to interfere in schools. Now that's serious stuff Rebecca. And the direction they wish to take schools is right up the feminist street.

I don't buy this solely 'feminist' connection. Even if it inadvertently supports what you would view as a feminist agenda- I don't buy the fact that science, as a historically predominantly male discipline- has any great respect or allegiance for feminism or feminists.

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It is because Christianity is in opposition to the liberal agenda regarding sexual matters that it is being targeted. Evolution and science are the sticks to beat it with.

People who are in opposition to Christianity oppose it on many different fronts - only one of which is sexual and reproductive freedom. And actually science and evolution support the efficacy of what has historically been viewed as the manifestation of judeo/christian sexual practice and tradition moreso than what's taken its place. So if they're using those sticks to beat it with, they're trading in falsehoods.

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I just wish they would declare that for one year women could have everything they asked for. By law.

But didn't you say this because you think that at the end of that year, they'd be begging to go back to the old system?

So why wouldn't they say this?:

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okay we have enough equality and we don't want anything else". Can you?

I don't know spendius. I've never been made to feel less than because I was a female. So as I said before on this thread, I've always felt that for me personally, I've had enough equality. Even in my field of employment, salary was based on level of education and years of experience and has been exactly the same for men and women since the day I started working. I've never felt disadvantaged by my gender. If anything- as I said - I've felt rewarded.
But I can say that because of where I am. If I were in Iran or Afghanistan - I'm sure I'd feel differently.
So yes, I can see some women feeling happy with the amount of equality they get, as long as they're respected as human beings.

But some human beings (men and women) will always want something more or different than what they're offered. And that's a function of personality -or unfulfilled needs-not gender.

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If you changed the genders in my statement it wouldn't work. I know a few blokes like the controlled, hooked and positively addicted woman but I don't think they are a large number.

Well, yeah, not any more, because feminism changed all that.

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And I think they would soon get fed up with it. We certainly don't see those in ads except ones with heavy irony.

Because for the majority of history, at least outwardly, that's the way it really was. But it's no longer politically correct or humorous to portray that.

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But how often do we see controlling women. If they were ironic the product wouldn't sell. One wouldn't demonstrate a scented underarm disinfectant spray on a Margaret Rutherford type who had never shaved. Which is sexist in some ways. It shows not all the sisters are equal..

Yeah - because it IS ironic- tongue in cheek- men know the woman isn't really in control- except maybe sexually- where they seem to act as if they are putty in a sexy woman's hands (well, not exactly putty...in the right hands (sorry couldn't resist) Laughing

.
Those ads are not about real day to day companionship and partner relationships - those ads (where the woman is controlling) are about sex. The question I have - is who gets off on them? I know I don't. Do you?
There's your answer.

I asked:

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Do men not understand that heterosexual women like them just as much as heterosexual men like women?

You said:

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I don't think so.

Think again.

You know I think it's sexist to believe that a man loves the feminine more than a female loves the masculine.

Why should the male attraction to the female be any more real or stronger than the female attraction to the male?
Are you guys special or something?

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@The Pentacle Queen,

I would have known the precise procedure to adopt in my younger days Queenie. And I know how I would have conducted a WE clinic on a campus of randy young females who had got out of parental surveillance for the first time.

I would have sent any serious problems to a physician and shagged the rest.

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@Gala,

If I thought a wellness educator was attractive - I'd try to become a wellness educator myself.
Then you wouldn't have to sit around and wait for a puny little one hour appointment during which you're outlining your problems and asking for help - you could go to the wellness educator classes and do role playing with each other - laugh- go out for a drink.

No but seriously - when it comes to my health- I appreciate practical knowledge and experience. I go to women gynocologists - pretty much exclusively. My obstetrician was a woman who'd given birth eight weeks before I did - I just don't think there's any substitute for practical experience when it comes to issues around a woman's health.

Maybe that's my bias - but it's always worked for me and besides - I like starting relationships on an even keel. I'm gonna sit there and tell him all my personal details and problems in a non-reciprocal situation?
No.
If we're gonna be student and educator - we'll be student and educator.
If we're gonna be friends or anything more - I'd approach it as being his friend.
I don't go for that game-playing - pretending to see someone for one reason when you want to see them for another.
Especially in a situation like this - I can only see that back-firing.
The person you asked for help might always feel like the helper. They might LIKE being the helper. I don't think I'd like that at all.

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@aidan,

Have you never been "on heat" Rebecca. We do the silliest things when in that state. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It has science to give it integrity. I wouldn't be surprised if Dawkins's second and third wives had only come in to his office to ask him for advice about their thesis on bi-valvular molluscs. Or blood clotting in chiclids.

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Gender is certainly an issue for many students coming to see a Wellness Educator.

We had two offices. One at the Student Health Dept, and another at the Student Union. They were staffed with Health Educators, from 10:00AM to 4:00PM each. Our names, pictures, and office hours where posted near our office door so people could plan when and who they would talk to.

I have no doubt that some people would feel more or less comfortable talking about certain issues with me due to me being a man. There ere even times when I talked with students, and I asked them if they'd be more comfortable talking to a woman. It's not about pride, but helping people get what they need. It happens both ways, I had some sessions with people who came to me because they didn't feel comfortable talking to a woman about them. The who goes to who, doesn't fall as neatly along gender lines as people may assume.

Women came in for lots of things, and not all of them sexually related either. I'm a bit tired of only talking about feminism in terms of sexual acts or expression. There are a lot of topics that get pushed to the side, which are just as important which have nothing to do with "a few women" talking "dirty."

T
K
O

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@aidan,

aidan wrote:

You know I think it's sexist to believe that a man loves the feminine more than a female loves the masculine.

Why should the male attraction to the female be any more real or stronger than the female attraction to the male?

Well put.

T
K
O

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What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

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