Patriotism: Trash or Treasure?

D'artagnan

Thanks for the info on the origin of "Jingoism" and I'm sure Craven will be grateful as well as it is one of his favorite battle crys in his crusade against patriotism.

So you thought until now that this related to the Germans, when marching through Poland to France?

Walter

I think you're confused about an ironic analogy I used--- or maybe I'm confused about what you meant by the first verse of that old song-----

"We don't want to fight, yet by jingo, if we do
we've got the men, we've got the ships
and we have the money to."

Maybe we should just let it drop............

perception,

I do not have a "battle cry" against patriotism. You do patriotism a disservice with your arguments herein by validating one of JL Nobody's statements.

Ahem - if we may return to the subject of the thread, from our little sojourn in Poland, and rant-land and suchlike...well, now Sofia - you ask what is wrong with patriotism?

Nothing, I don't think - using some of the definitions people have happily made up for themselves - only problem is, I don't, as I said, really think some of the "wanting the best for one's country" ones really do meet the definition.

For instance - devotion -

"1. profound dedication; consecration.
2. earnest attachment to a cause, person, etc.

4. Often, devotions. Eccles.religious observance or worship; a form of prayer or worship for special use."

I would argue that, definitionally, this contains an element of blindness - a more intense emotionality than is being allowed for in the "patriotisms" people are creating for themselves. Dogs are devoted - we are devoted to our lovers - we perform devotions to a god. I do not think this speaks to a measured, but warm , desire that our country does well, while maintaining cool judgment about its actions - nor, I think, does "love and support".

Back later...

Nuthin' wrong with not liking patriotism either then?

Balancing voice convo on the Moslem Celebrants of 911 thread.

For previously requested translation.

dlowan said, partially--


I was asked my definition, or 'brand' of patriotism. It is not "happily made up", but my honest emotion. I own my brand of patriotism, as you do yours... As I remarked previously, devotion is a touchy word for me. To me, it implies a devotee, unswayed.

I am rigidly enamored (odd coupling, that) by the promise of my country, and it's foundation--but not always by each action of controlling administrations, powers or approved entities.

What is it with you, perception?

I let your insulting remark to me slide. But then you make a snide crack at Walter for no discernible reason. And then you intentionally misunderstand Craven's position. I can't find a single place on this thread where he has said he is against patriotism. Nor have I ever said that.

I am an exteremly even-tempered person who seldom raises to the bait. But if you keep driving your garbage truck up my street, I'm coming off the porch.

MA, When they're just picking up garbage, let em be.

Perception - I do not really think anyone was confused about what you meant by your "marching through Poland" gibe - and letting it drop sounds like good advice - 'twere pity only 'twere picked up.

However, I found the gibe interesting in the context of what brought this thread into being in the first place - which was yours and Sofia's comments on the dissolving the electoral college thread about patriotism being, in your minds, considered by "liberals" (in inverted commas because, as I always say, liberals are our conservatives) as a sort of causative agent for fascism (I can't find the quotes - sorry if I am misrepresenting you - I will try to rectify that when I return from work!).

However, I now find myself wondering, Perception, does your segue from the preceding posts to your gibe against Walter, imply that patriotism actually is a slippery slope for fascism in your mind, or was that segue inspired more by talk of jingoism?

The problem with patriotism (which is really just an American euphemism for nationalism) is that, when embedded in our government, patriotic sentiments lead to bad policies.

As I said earlier, American patriotism is based on American political values. In other nationalistic nations, the sentiment is based on historical grievances and triumphs. This blind belief in American values has led to bad policy. For example, the idea that our American values (democracy, human rights, capitalism) are universal truths has led us to promote those values in our forign policy. This has led to an incoherant, hypocritical, and unattainable policy that only incites resentment in places where we try to impose our values. I'm assuming that examples are not needed.

Wth sincere regards to deb the dlowan, i offer an opinion. Patriotism, that is the desire to protect the power in a society by way of increasing the power of a society, is inherently belligerent. Since there can be no awards of accomplishment without opponents, patriots must create enemies before we can require protection from them. Patriots can ony flourish where boundries are well-defined, hostile and dangerous. The spirit of patriotism is therefore characterisacally associated with the military or other modes of international conflcit. Because patriotism is always the desire to contain others outside its purvue it is always evil in its intent. Wanting the best outcome for your family, your neighborhood, your communityis very positive in a sense of patroitism, but needing that by diminishing others is offensive.

Its is? Where is this definition from?

ILZ i suggest you pick a definition, any defintion and go with what works for you. I picked my, you pick yours.

That seems a little ridiculous too me. Although it would be a wonderfull fairy tale if the meaning of every word was subjective, it would also make any meaningfull conversation impossible. I know that definitions vary slightly, but patriotism/nationlism is generally considerd to be proudness of ones country. All of the other things that seem to be mentioned - protecting power and increasing power, ethnicity, history etc - are all extensions of that proudness and should be dealth with on case by case basis not incorperated into the actual definition.

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. Say what you like about my bloody murderous government,' I says, `but don't insult me poor bleedin' country.

Hmm - it seems we need a thread on whether we agree to use words as defined, more or less, in our dictionaries - (acknowledging that definitions differ, somewhat - but there is, I think, a generally accepted sense to be made of most words!) - or whether we design our own meanings. I incline to the former, as I have said - for the sake of reasonable discourse.

That said - I think Dyslexia is less DEFINING patriotism, than making a statement about what he believes its FUNCTION to be - though I could be wrong.

I think this analysis of the function of patriotism is one that I partly agree with. As I keep saying, boringly no doubt, I will be back.


Tha

Good to see you back, Iron Lion Zion!

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.