Patriotism: Trash or Treasure?

ehBeth

Yes. Coincident with the beginnings of large permanent settlements were other folks who remained nomadic, or who partially nomadic. A site like Catal Huyuk shows commodities present which originated sometimes thousands of miles distant. So there would have been a real blurring at the edges of 'group'...we can see this sort of thing clearly in the Greek cities or modern cities with folks from all over, coming and going (edit...also notable in the Catal Huyuk site is that there were two distinct phyiological variants, or body types, found - grandma got buried under your bed)

I think it is pretty certain that if we could pop back to Athens or Thebes, we'd find rather a lot of variation in the locals viewpoints regarding what might be a valid cause for taking up arms, for some it might be a slight against the city, for others a matter of principle, etc. I think it is also pretty certain that the chaps in charge would be trying like the dickens to promote uniformity of ideas and values.

OK--So that we can put this nastiness behind us and allow me to salvage a tiny scrap of my dignity I do apologize to the other participants for any unpleasant wording I may have used in the emotion of this heated discussion which has been so valuable thanks to Dlowan.

I do not however apologize for any comment made to Setanta and I stand by my allegation that he insults to destroy. He has stored up great amounts of vindictiveness which he deploys with great relish and delight not caring whether it is taken in any particular vein---in other words---the intent is to be as hurtfull and destructive as possible. Therefore I will continue to respond in any manner I see fit to bring about similar results.

When I first arrived on the scene(at the beginning of the Iran Iraq thread about a century ago) Setanta immediately brought his sneer into play---thus the allegation from me that he invented the sneer. I was attacked over this same subject----patriotism and the flag. It has festered and boiled but I kept thinking we might reach some sort of mutual respect and be able to put this thing to rest in a reasonable fashion---the fact that there has been no sign of respect from the other side has caused considerable disappointment to me but I will not continue to worry about what I can't change. So Setanta you can continue to sneer and insult and I will deal with it. I do promise to the other participants that I will not initiate the attack----only respond.

G'night all!

Good night, MsBunny. Please put that cigarette out before you go to bed.



perception, I hope that you and Setanta can both find a way to deal with each other civilly. You are both quite gifted at the things you accuse each other of. Sometimes it makes it difficult to read posts from either of you. Sometimes it makes me wish I could grab both of you and knock your foreheads together.

I suspect you won't get any great thrill from this, but Setanta is truly engaged in being American. As you are. It's part of what makes American interesting/challenging - that you can both be out there - forcefully presenting your opinions - neither of you being jailed for them.

ehBeth

Thank you for your gracious but yet firm request to stop the foolishness. Setanta is lucky to have someone who possesses such depth and graciousness. Being gifted at being uncivil is not something I can be proud of but thanks for bestowing that anchor around my neck with such aplomb.

I trust your dogs will continue to be treated to long walks but please continue to bring more of your insight to the table.

We are fortunate to have you ladies to moderate and raise the intellectual level.

Note: The debate room (whenever it opens) will feature the ability to select the participants beforehand.

'Twouldn't be half the fun - a nice, healthy dose of outrage gets the synapses snapping, I find....

snap snap snap




yup

snap can be nice sometimes

Ah those electrifying synapses----a topic dear to my heart...........

What is the ETA of the much anticipated "debate room"?

I've been waiting for some staffers to take up that project as I don't have the time or desire for that one. It may eventually die as an idea but there are solid ideas just waiting for capable help.

My thanks to Perception for his bile, and for having forgotten that when he first arrived, i made a very serious effort to include him in discussions, to join his threads on thoughtful topics, and to otherwise be civil. That entire attack you just made was horseshit. You've brought all of this on yourself.

Thanks to ehBeth for insulting me as few strangers ever do.

hehhehheh ... <grins at perception, blatham, lola and walter>

you people forgive me my little flippancies, right? <smiles>



nah i was just hoping - two swimpys (swimpies?) are better than one! :-)

i hadnt gotten the whole bestiality thing btw ... thank god ...

one thing about perception tho - in terms of that post about "fessing up" - you gotta give to him that sometimes (if not in this case) he actually does - which is a rare enough thing to see on the political threads, as it is!

'bout the sheep ... what was that little joke? "Utah - where men are real men and sheep are nervous"? :-)

(what does it say about globalisation that a dutchmen like me knows corny jokes about utah?)

I was thinking, about how "patriotism" generally is seen to have more positive connotations than "nationalism" ...

Is it because nationalism by definition refers to a political ambition of perfected statehood, whereas patriotism refers merely to whatever statehood already exists?

I hope i am not guiltying myself to reinventing definitions with this point ...

The invention of nationalism, as a modern ideology, was based on the notion that, not just are there "nations", but that every nation should have its "own" state, right? That made nationalism the struggle to, first, create that state (always at the expense of existing and rival political entities) and, then, make it into "one's own" (often at the expense of minorities who were by extension redefined as being in the wrong place).

Patriotism, on the other hand, seems like the loyalty to whatever entity already exists - local or national. It doesn't aim to wrest new entities and identities through fire and sword - it isnt about defining who is "in" and who is "out", who is allowed to stay or should go - it merely expects all those who are already there to live up to its standard.

That means patriotism can still be played out in political struggle among citizens (the 'good patriot' - 'bad patriot' game) - but even the accusation of being a "bad patriot" in the end denotes inclusion, not exclusion - if someone considers you a bad patriot, apparently he considers you to be one of his - just a badly behaving one of his!

(Lemme know if I'm just rambling here ... I'm really tired)

Blimey! Dunno - I am tired too. I don't think that the "good patriot/bad patriot" game, as you call it, is one I have especially noticed. I more notice the "patriot=good, therefore you are not a patriot" game (which is the one which stands out to me) vs the "patriot=bad, therefore you are a patriot" game - which doesn't stand out for me, but which seems to for those who tend to define themselves as patriots.

I think......

Now I'm tired after reading the last 2 posts. And that's all I'm gonna say on this subject!

Well, I always wondered about the patriotism in these two towns:





On the left site, you'll see the Dutch town Kerkrade, right is the German town Herzogenrath.

The street in the center is called 'Neue Straße" as well as "Nieuwsstraat" [ancient "Pavé-d'Aix-La-Chapelle"] , people on the left pavement live in The Netherlands, those opposite in Germany.

(There had been a small 30 cm high concrete wall to prevent smugglers until a couple of years ago in the center of that road.)

LOL!

Makes you wonder if the residents there have to pay double taxes for road repairs to two different countries for each side of the road.

Well, I'm not sure about the repair costs, but at least the Dutch police can go to Germany and vice versa. The library card is valid in both libraries, bus schedules are for both towns (they want to re-name it to "Eurode".

However, both towns are unfortunately wellknown starting places for right-wing, Neo-Nazi and "patriotic-nationalistic" demonstrations.

Well, in this question the case is clear.

The borders have just obviously been drawn wrong!

See - if you look at it: it is very clear that it would have been much more practical and logical and natural if the border would have kept following the Worm down to just north of Kohlscheid, then cross through in the fields in between Kerkrade and Kohlscheid south of the Pannesheiderstrasse to where it could follow that smaller stream back north, then west again.

It would have represented the natural course of things.

In fact, I thank you for bringing this egregious wrong to my attention. It is clear that our government leaders should demand a renegotiation of the borders in the face of European integration, to make sure that no longer will part of the Dutch town of Kerkrade be cruelly split apart into German territory in the most arbitrary way!

<giggles>