Again, Sofia - as I read that statement the writer is making a statement about the misuse of patriotism to accuse non-Bush supporters - not necessarily making a statement about patriotism per se.
But again - what of your massive generalization about the "liberal establishment"?
...well, dlowan, imagine how you would feel if I had attributed a statement to you you hadn't made... Your cavil would approximate mine, morphing to consternation.
<evidencing consternation>
<broil>
But - it being 2.30 am, I shall have to continue my part of this discussion sometime tomorrow.
Good night all.
You DID make a statement, Sofia. A huge one. Something of a humdinger, I would have thought.
Not the one YOU SAID I made.
Some months ago, I posted a number of comments from folks like Coulter and Bill Kristol who fessed up to purposefully stipulating the definition of 'liberal' in a very particular way - derogatorily (and, though they were variously forthright or not about the following) with suggestions of un-Americanness, laziness, sexual profligacy, atheism, lack of patriotism, etc.
Those who can recall the 92 Republican convention will remember that the term 'liberal' was thrown out in exactly the same manner as 'communist' had been earlier. Coulter's latest book attempting to portray McCarthy as a good guy who was right after all, and who had just been tarred by lapdog liberals is just another attempt to achieve the same redefinition of 'liberal'.
Sofia has, at least to some degree, bought into this package of notions without understanding the genesis of them. Locating the 'liberal establishment' will prove something of a task, unless one uses further generalizations; 'the liberal press' or 'the liberal universities'.
Sofia...you aren't unbright, and you have the courage to argue, but you've been suckered by folks who are good at it.
Well, i'm definitely going to go out and warm up my Huffmobile, and leave. But before i go, i'll just let you all know that we of the Liberal Establishment will have no truck with the likes of you . . .
Earlier, I talked about denotation and connotation in evaluating terms.
I decided to check out the denotation of liberal and conservative and got a real laugh out of this site:
http://www.politicalstrikes.com/thesaurus.html
to paraphrase "I am not a member of any liberal establishment, I'm a democrat"
Women are soooooo much better at fighting than men.
This is the first time I've had fun (as well as gaining a certain enlightenment) reading an ongoing debate, with some anger displayed, in a political thread. Everyone should note that there is no stabbing pettiness or character assassination.
This thread should become a classic.
Go Deb and Sophia!
Setanta--I did hear that Cleo is a slut. Care to clear that up?
I refuse to answer on the grounds that i may get in serious trouble with The Girl.
Evil is never intended as evil, Indeed, the contractiction in all evil is that it originates in the desire to eliminate evil. "the only good indian is a dead indian." Evil arises in the honored belief that history can be tidied up, brought to a sensible conclusion. It is evil to act as though the past continues through the present bringing us to a specific end. It is evil to assume that the past will make make sense only if we bring it to an issue we have clearly in view. It is evil for a nation to believe it is "the last, best hope on earth." It is evil to think history is to end with a return to Zion, or with a classless society, or with the Islamicization of all living infidels. Your history does not belong to me. We live with each other in a common history. To be aware that we all live with the inescapable likihood of evil is to be aware that the goal of elimination of evil in others is the very impulse of evil itself and, therefore its own contradiction. I can, at best, and paradoxically, attempt to recognize in myself the evil that takes the form of attempting to eliminate evil elsewhere. A common usuage of patriotism is the elimination of other voices to be heard but in doing so, eliminates all voices.
dys
You got it. I think the term 'evil' ought only to be applied to certain cheeses.
I've only read the first 70-80 posts or so ... but Rufio was making a lot of sense!
Which is cool, cause I'd never seen a post by him, and its always nice to see new members who make a lot of sense ;-)
Welcome, rufio
So like, is it safe to assume that, for the purposes of this thread, patriotism is not to be confused with an irrational loved of the New England football team?
Shirley (blatham) you must know that I don't think the liberal establishment holds regular meetings in a treehouse. Yet, Shirley you know there are political seats of power, disseminating their talking points and goals.
Therefore, there are liberal and conservative 'establishments'. Shirley you must agree.
Setanta-- Is that
mindless, irrational love?
Diane--
Quote:to paraphrase "I am not a member of any liberal establishment, I'm a democrat"
This is funny.
Shirley? Somebody help me with this one.
Irony, and a wee bit of hostility Rog . . .
No. I'm punch drunk from fussing with dlowan, nimh and Craven.
"Surely" was all over my post, so I changed it so he could tell me emphatically not to call him "Shirley".
An obvious low point in my rhetoric.
Used up all my hostility (and brain cells, it seems) on patriotism and my sad thread--The Jews.
I need a nap.
