41
   

What insight have you gained from you profession/education that the layman doesn't understand?

 
 
Adanac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Aug, 2009 10:37 pm
The question was...

What insight have you gained from you profession/education that the layman doesn't understand?

How about a quote from Winston Churchill ...

Quote:
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 08:35 am
Blimey.....I don't know what I know that others might not know.....it's all kind of integrated, and it changes all the time, as new research is published and I learn from experience and from others...though a lot of the cutting edge research suggests the same activities as really good therapists have been doing for years.

And it's not like the stuff I know isn't available to a layperson who wants to spend a long time reading about it.

I guess the neurobiology of trauma and attachment....good and bad...is stuff I tend to be teaching a lot, so I guess a lot of people do not know it.

I don't get fazed much by the horrible things people are capable of doing to each other, and to children......(but I do sometimes) and I don't tend to do that thing I notice happens a lot where people protect themselves from the humanness of the horrible things and those and those who do them by calling them monsters and denying them humanity.....(but sometimes they make my flesh crawl to deal with ...especially the organised and highly intelligent abusers who have a lot of money and power, and know how to work the system)...and I usually know more or less the right things to do to help people deal with awful stuff, but I still make big mistakes.


And I guess I know heaps of stuff about criminals, the justice system, various illnesses and such, because I have worked in corrections and a hospital....


But it's kind of hard to know what others mightn't know until they ask you...and I've been doing this stuff so long that a lot of it is kind of implicit memory that you don't know you have, but it's stuff you just do.


I guess it might be summed up as "Oh, the humanity."



DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 09:03 am
@dlowan,
The lesson I learned from my wife (who I think has some similar experiences to yours) is: be careful what you learn or see, because some things can't been unlearned or unseen.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 09:09 am
@DrewDad,
yeah.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 01:20 pm
Thank you for all the wonderful replies.
I shall now begin to write back to some of you.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 01:30 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
Kuvasz raises an important point about levels of discourse. To a large extent the phrase "history is bunk" may be valid when historians anthropomorphise the actions of countries with phrases like "Russia wanted..." etc. Such insight came for me from contrasting psychological and sociological approaches to human behaviour.

Another point with which kuvasz might concur is about simplistic lay concepts of "facts" . Science degrees tend to stress the constant restructuring of theories rather than the seeking of "truth". For example the "layman" might assume that the heliocentric solar system is "a fact" or "the reality" when in essence its adoption was based on the elegance of the model relative to convoluted alternatives. Ironically, the layman still uses a geocentric model for everyday purposes when he talks of the sun "rising and setting". This point leads to many others regarding "elegance" and "mathematical symmetry" with which the layman is ill-equipped to deal("negative time" in electrodynamics being one that springs to mind).


Brilliant as always, Fresco, thank you.
I'm completely ignorant about it. What other theories were there?

Truth is a concept best used casually, I think sometimes.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 01:43 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Where a layman sees pretty scenery and colored soils, I see clues. It can get to be like a constant hum or a symphony note in your head however. Having ideas about how an earth system works can get in the way of enjoying the pretty scenery.

I once was standing on the rim of the Grand Canyon and people ere all oohing and aahing. I was following a single bed around the horizon and trying to recontruct some tectonic feature.

Bummer.


I'm totally with you on this one Farmerman.
Not that I know anything about tectonics, but I remember when I was about 9 I started to compose short pieces at the piano and show my parents and my teacher and get really exited about it. It was like this 'magic' I could tap into without really knowing how i did it, and no one else (I knew) could do it like I could.
Learning music properly really changed all that. I remember being really disappointed when I analysed some of my later compositions and found that some of what sounded good had really obvious underlying chord structures.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 01:47 pm
@BorisKitten,
Quote:
One bit of advice here: When your computer breaks (and it WILL), and you call for help, do NOT supply any theories on why it broke or what is wrong with it, ever (such as, "I think it must be X.")

You will be made fun of (for weeks, possibly) behind your back by the Help Desk folks ("OMG, he thought it was X! Hahaha!")


Haha, that's hilarious. I can totally imagine that. Have made a mental note never to do that in the future.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 01:55 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
From landscape architecture - a surprising number of people never seem to notice their environment, urban or countryside. I got "new eyes" myself learning about what I've been looking at all my life, and "more eyes" learning about designing for people moving through spaces.

From art - creating art yourself, however pleased you are or are not with a given piece, is very engaging, and also promotes "new eyes" as does landscape architecture and med research. Seeing/hearing other people's art obviously does, at least some of the time.


That's a nice way of putting it, Osso.
I think this is why I started the thread, to encourage the growth of 'new eyes'. In a philosophical sense more than a practical sense, though.

People don't generally notice their environment.

I went to art school for a bit. It's WEIRD the difference looking at something like a card someone has made, or you buy in the shop, or the way something is arranged, and then looking at it again but imagining that YOU did it. There is automatically a lot you wish to change. For me, anyway.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 01:59 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
I know what you mean! That happened to me with writing/ literature, too. (I started out as an art major and then became an English major.) (And science writing... and anthropology... and...)

I think the ideal educational experience is getting a whole set of "new eyes." (Agreed, great way of putting it.)
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 02:07 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:
The world's biodiversity is declining at an unprecedented rate. At least 15 species have gone extinct in the past 20 years and another 12 survive only in captivity. Current extinction rates are at least 100 to 1,000 times higher than natural rates found in the fossil record. Humans are the main reason for most species' declines. Habitat destruction and degradation are the leading threats, but other significant pressures include over-exploitation (for food, pets, and medicine), introduced species, pollution, and disease. Climate change is increasingly recognized as a serious threat..." - paraphrased from a recent report by the World Conservation Union.

I think humans are heading towards the end of their existence by destroying the web of life they depend on to sustain their own survival, and the majority are clueless by circumstance or choice.


Well, you've been contested a lot here, Green Witch.
I don't know the facts.
There's no doubt that humans have a negative impact on the environment, what that 'means' exactly, is harder to state.

There's a quote from Darwin “It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”
Are humans adaptable to change? Humans seem pretty reluctant to change to renewable energy sources.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 02:35 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
I studied Physics in college, and worked in Physics and engineering for many years. Learning any one of the hard science or engineering disciplines has a profound effect on one's ability to analyze situations. One's first such course has a much more profound effect on one's consciousness than the subsequent dozens of courses one may take in scientific fields. Studying science teaches you a way of thinking that it took the human race until about the 17th century to discover, and which enables you to analyze situations in such a way that you have some hope of getting the correct answer. When anyone thus trained hears people without such training try to opine about science, it is very, very apparent how profoundly they don't get it. In principle, an untrained person could come up with a correct answer to a scientific question, but the chances of someone recapituating millenia of human scientific development in his thinking are actually negligible. Formally learning science makes a tremendous change to your thinking and capacity for analysis.


Thank you Brandon.
Hopefully you can forgive me for being so ignorant and pretentious, but when i had finished the first term of my university education (I do an arts subject) and I had rapidly learned a lot of cultural/social/political ways of analysing the world I had a kind of 'epiphany'.
I suppose I grew new eyes, and fast, in my first term of university. The thing is with rapid development is that the beliefs don't really have time to mature or be critiqued. Anyway, I used to 'pity' (for lack of a better word) all the people I saw doing science degrees- sat in their classes learning dry facts whist I was learning about the way everything was constructed.
The fact that a lot of people on my facebook friends list are doing degrees in science at exeter or imperial or somewhere else quite credible, but had 'dirty dancing' or 'big momma's house 2' listed as their favorite movies verified the fact that they understood nothing about culture.
Now, obviously I realise this is a reflection of my layman's beliefs about science degrees being about 'learning facts'.

They say that you go to university to discover you don't know anything.
The more you know, the better you can gauge the size of the areas you don't know about. I think everyone, myself included, always underestimates.

Anyway, if you don't mind, could you or Walter who also mentioned his training, or anyone else, solicit an example of when this analysis has been useful.
Or when you've been in a situation with someone with no such training, and your insight has given you a wildly different perspective from them?
What does your insight then make you feel towards the person?
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 02:36 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
And I mean kind of 'everyday life' situations as well as academic ones.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 02:40 pm
@Adanac,
Quote:
The question was...

What insight have you gained from you profession/education that the layman doesn't understand?

How about a quote from Winston Churchill ...

Quote:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.


Haha, thats very funny Adanac.
Didn't he also say that it was 'a terrible system, but the best we've got' or was that capitalism? I suppose the saying is applicable to either.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 02:41 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
Yes, and sometimes the philosophical can be practical... at least not mutually exclusive. Not that I'm any swiftie on the philosophical.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 02:48 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
I don't get fazed much by the horrible things people are capable of doing to each other, and to children......(but I do sometimes) and I don't tend to do that thing I notice happens a lot where people protect themselves from the humanness of the horrible things and those and those who do them by calling them monsters and denying them humanity.....(but sometimes they make my flesh crawl to deal with ...especially the organised and highly intelligent abusers who have a lot of money and power, and know how to work the system)...and I usually know more or less the right things to do to help people deal with awful stuff, but I still make big mistakes.


And I guess I know heaps of stuff about criminals, the justice system, various illnesses and such, because I have worked in corrections and a hospital....


That's interesting, dlowan.
Evil is a uniquely human concept. I'd not thought about the fact that people like that get described as sub-human, how ironic. Denial.
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 02:49 pm
@sozobe,
Can you sum up your 'new eyes' for me please sozboe. It sounds like you would have some interesting ones.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 02:54 pm
I'm glad if my post was of some help. The type of experience I have described happens to me very frequently. Usually, it's both a matter of someone not knowing the science and also simply not knowing how scientific questions are approached. To give one simple example, Einstein wrote:

E = mc^2

Now, if someone suggests to me that Einstein was wrong and that the correct formula should be:

E = mc

I know immediately that he's wrong because the units on the right, kilogram meters per second in the mks system, don't match the units on the left, kilogram meters squared per second squared, so the equation is a priori impossible. It's like saying 5 minutes = 2 meters. It cannot be true. There have been several such posts of the type I was referring to here on this board. I could easily find one, but I hesitate to single out any other member in this way. I can give you a kind of example, though, about why it's essentially pointless for people to speculate about scientific areas they haven't been trained in. My wife recently went to a dermatoligist about a skin condition. He referred her to an allergist who tested her skin for allergic reactions to an array of known substances. This required her to wear a skin patch and come back multiple times. She knew that I had had a skin test for allergic reactions a year earlier, because of some respiratory issues, which had all been completed by sticking my skin with little needles on just one single occasion. She speculated that the allergist she had been sent to was simply trying to bring her back a number of times to make more money, so finally she asked him about it. He responded with a very lucid explanation of how different immune system cells were involved with respiratory problems and skin problems, and why my issue had had to be tested one way and her issue another way. The moral is that if you're untrained in a technical discipline, don't assume that you can even form meaningful conclusions about it.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 03:04 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
Oooh. That'd be hard!

With literature, it's getting different levels in some books (the levels have to be there and not all books contain them). I remember writing a paper about a seemingly innocuous passage in a Margaret Atwood book that was chock-full of meaningful symbolism -- before writing that paper I would've skipped right over such things. That was an eye-opener. I'm in a book club now and I've learned to not point out such things unless they're really cool/ important to the story, as it makes peoples' eyes glaze over fast. Very Happy I love that stuff though.

With science writing, it was realizing how much bias and uncritical reporting can go into something seemingly straightforward. I remember a professor absolutely destroying a science article that was credible enough the first time I read it. That's a lesson that really stuck with me, and you've probably seen me do similar things here. It's a general lesson, not just science writing, though it seems to come up a lot in that genre because journalists who are not specialists may not have the time to really figure it out for themselves and so rely on the word of their informants -- who may well have an agenda -- more than they would in other fields that they may understand better.


Re: what Brandon has to say... my husband is a scientist and summarizes it as "knowing how to think." Some non-scientists know how to think, but it's fatal if a scientist doesn't know how to think. Such a person might get a certain distance just on hard work and rote memorization but will eventually hit a brick wall. (He'll comment on a potential grad student as "good test scores but I'm not sure he knows how to think." Etc.)
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2009 03:29 pm
@jespah,
A slight disjoiner..

When I took classes in landarch, I was in my early forties, and previously educated. We had a short class or two on writing towards the end of the three or four years, the teacher advising us rather stridently to use simple words and sentences. I didn't know then to ask just where to use these.. In our specifications? In our contracts? We followed our attorney's take on contracts and had him review the larger ones, but personally, simple sentences put me to sleep, and I'd guess they would our potential clientele in some cases as well. Livening up never did me or the companies ill, that I am aware of, and seemed by feedback to be appreciated.

This is not to say that our contracts were never simple. Sometimes they were very simple. But don't tell me to not use more than a two or three syllable word, or any smidge of what some would call jargon.

This is not a rant to jespah and her mention of legal jargon foufou - but against what I take as a general word watering business from writing consultants.

No, I'm not for jargon as a language, most of the time.. But I'm way against some kind of obliteration of multi syllable words.

My point, fear of words isn't always useful.
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 12/22/2024 at 08:05:47