Supreme Court decides Ricci Case

Finally equal opportunity has some meaning for all.

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@wandeljw,

such skill as all the hoses pointing up into the wind

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@wandeljw,

wandeljw wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:

Actually, I would agree. I don't believe a test result necessarily points to the best overall qualified person.

Good point, CoastalRat and DrewDad. Wasn't the test in question a written test? Should firefighters show they have the right physical skills?

But this test was administered to determine who would be promoted to supervisory positions for those directing the work of the firefighters and ordering them into harms way. The candidates were already firefighters and had already been demonstrating the right physical skills. I think now their basic knowledge of rules, policy, inherent dangers involved, and methodology would be as much or more important than physical ability, and a written test would certainly be a way to determine that somebody knew his stuff. It would also be a way to ensure that no personal favoritism or patronage would be involved in the promotion process.

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@wandeljw,

It was part written and part oral. Remember, they are already firefighters. The test was for promotion to Captain. They already have the physical skills.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

wandeljw wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:

Actually, I would agree. I don't believe a test result necessarily points to the best overall qualified person.

Good point, CoastalRat and DrewDad. Wasn't the test in question a written test? Should firefighters show they have the right physical skills?

But this test was administered to determine who would be promoted to supervisory positions for those directing the work of the firefighters and ordering them into harms way. The candidates were already firefighters and had already been demonstrating the right physical skills. I think now their basic knowledge of rules, policy, inherent dangers involved, and methodology would be as much or more important than physical ability, and a written test would certainly be a way to determine that somebody knew his stuff. It would also be a way to ensure that no personal favoritism or patronage would be involved in the promotion process.

Absolutely.

This is the lunacy of the affair.

What would be the alternative to testing?

Subjective personal judgment.

Imagine the hue and cry if senior FD officers had selected for promotion the same firefighters who passed the test. The assumption that racism was involved would be a given.

So how might the FD avoid such a firestorm?

Quotas - explicit or otherwise.

I feel certain the test in question didn't use the word "dinghy," so how might it have been racially discriminatory?

[If you're wondering about "dinghy," see DrewDad's tale of how the black girl in his class did very poorly on the SAT they both took because it used the word "dinghy." As anyone who is white can tell you a "dinghy" is a slang term, used only by caucasions for the word penis. The inappropriate utilization of this term can only be explained by the racist intentions of the designers of the test. An even more obscure meaning of the word is "small boat," which, if it was used in this context, only furthers the charge of racial discrimination, because as we all know, African-Americans can't swim and therefore would not know anything about boats.]

So the same test is given to all applicants for promotion in an attempt to rule out unjust subjective personal opinion. They are also all provided with the same materials with which to prepare for the test. Something like 17 whites and 2 hispanics pass the test. That no blacks passed the test proves it was discriminatory. Obviously it used exclusively white slang for common words like "fire," "hose," and "emergency," and just as obviously, the two hispanics who passed were posers: It won't be long before the facts are revealed that both were actually raised by white familes and denied their latin heritage.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

[If you're wondering about "dinghy," see DrewDad's tale of how the black girl in his class did very poorly on the SAT they both took because it used the word "dinghy." As anyone who is white can tell you a "dinghy" is a slang term, used only by caucasions for the word penis. The inappropriate utilization of this term can only be explained by the racist intentions of the designers of the test. An even more obscure meaning of the word is "small boat," which, if it was used in this context, only furthers the charge of racial discrimination, because as we all know, African-Americans can't swim and therefore would not know anything about boats.]

Good lord, did you miss the point of that story.

The point is that a test designed to predict academic success measured vocabulary. There might be a correlation between vocabulary and academic success, but I would judge it more of a following measure. High vocabulary is what you want after you've gotten an education.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

My only (little) quibble with this is the assumption that scoring high on a test makes someone the most qualified.

Absofuckinglutely! Consider those, over all those long years, who got the high scores in English grammar parroting Strunk & White.

Mensa's, OM's a fine example, are hardly the most qualified people.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Really?
(I wonder what the Founders, who wrote the Constitution, woud have thought of that opinion.)

Who gives a **** what those racist assholes would have thought. Their job ended with the signing.

Where have you been for the past century, David?

Perhaps you and Itry should form a legal team to fight the various Civil Rights Acts.

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Quote:

Who gives a **** what those racist assholes would have thought. Their job ended with the signing.

Youthful Ignorance shows it's ugly head once again!!! Laughing

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

The point is that a test designed to predict academic success measured vocabulary. There might be a correlation between vocabulary and academic success, but I would judge it more of a following measure. High vocabulary is what you want after you've gotten an education.

Is that really your point?

At what age did you and the young lady take the test?

In my day, it was typical to take it in the 11th grade. What's that, about age 16?

So after 11 or 12 years of formal education you don't expect kids to have improved their vocabulary?

Obviously if the SATs are intended to predict future academic achievement they have to measure the extent of achievement at the time the test is taken.

SATs are not an IQ test.

If someone taking the test has not achieved at least the minimum level of expected knowledge by the time they take it, it doesn't bode well for their future achievement.

Obviously knowing what "dinghy" means isn't, in and of itself, much of a measurement or predictor, but there is nothing "race based" about the term and if this was the only word the young lady did not know, she would not have scored poorly on the verbal portion of the test.

If I recall correctly, the SATs were a lot more than a vocabulary test, and most of the verbal questions gave a person the opportunity to "figure out" the answer based on relational concepts.

How did the young lady do on the Math portion that constituted 50% of the total score? Tough to understand how a math question can be racially biased.

Some people freeze up when taking a big test, and so one set of scores could easily be an erroneous reflection on a person. Did the young lady repeat the tests? Do you know how she did on her second or third try?

Of course your entire point is predicated upon the proposition that you expected the young lady to score higher. Now that's scientific.

It is also predicated on the assumption that, for some reason, a black person in the 11th grade would never have reason to know what "dinghy" means.

Your story suggests you attended an integrated school. If this is the case and the young lady benefited from desegregation efforts in your school district, then she would have received essentially the same education as you did. Did you know what "dinghy" meant? If so, in what way was it your whiteness that assured that knowledge, and if not, then it proves the question wasn't racially biased, or that you were raised by a black family.

My point is that your point makes no sense.

It may actually be that the SATs are racially biased (although I don't believe they are) but the use of "dinghy" sure as hell doesn't prove it.

Herein lies the greater problem: people too often believe and swear by the notion of racially biased tests by no other evidence than the racially categorized results.

If we believe that it is axiomatic that there are no measurable differences in the intelligence of the groups we have defined as "races," then we have to explain "racially" differentiated results in testing. The first, and to me the absolutely least intellectually satisfying answer is: The tests are biased!

We need to acknowledge that the axiom is more a product of ideology than science, although it still is one I accept.

It is far more likely, however, that "racially" identified social factors play a far greater role in "racially" differentiated results than intentional or otherwise discriminatory tests.

Asians score higher, on average, than other racially defined groups. Does anyone really think the SATs were developed to favor Asians?

There certainly seems to be a greater social imperative for education among Asians than among blacks, or whites, for that matter.

We can dither all day about a fundamental difference between the Asian and Black experience in America, but how large is the margin represented by that difference?

This is not a condemnation of African-Americans. They easily could have, and I believe would have, duplicated the Asian experience, if the Great Society had not created a culture of entitlement and so-called leaders like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton had not encouraged complaint and victimhood over self-reliance and achievement.

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@Yankee,

Yankee wrote:

Quote:
Who gives a **** what those racist assholes would have thought. Their job ended with the signing.

Youthful Ignorance shows it's ugly head once again!!!

The answer to the youthful ignoramus is:
the virtuous Originalist Conservative American citizens,
like Barry Goldwater, Antonin Scalia and Me.

David

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@Finn dAbuzz,

(disclaimer: My research on SAT scores is somewhat out-of-date; I actually looked this stuff up during college. Nothing here is meant to apply to current SAT tests, because I'm not up on current testing.)

1. The SAT correlated very well with vocabulary.
2. Vocabulary correlates very well with socio-economic status.
Conclusion: The SAT primarily measured socio-economic status. (which also correlates with academic success, and which is why the SAT is considered a measure of academic potential.)

1. A much higher percentage of minorities have low socio-economic status than whites.
2. The SAT measured socio-economic status.
Conclusion: The SAT was (is?) racially biased.

Those are the basic conclusions to which I arrived.

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@DrewDad,

I'll add that I've seen quite a few concurring opinions that the SAT of the 80's and 90's was culturally biased in favor of middle-class, white boys.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

The answer to the youthful ignoramus is:
the virtuous Originalist Conservative American citizens,
like Barry Goldwater, Antonin Scalia and Me.

"virtuous", these three peckerheads, what a laugh!

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@DrewDad,

Do you really belive that these conclusions are anything more than the desired results of a person unable to grasp objectivity?

Your argument is, frankly, ridiculous, but maybe someone can explain why it is not.

You know sometimes we all make a declaration we can't validate. When pressed, we can acknowledge our emotions overwhelmed logic, but sometimes we are such partisan hacks, we will argue our point well beyond ridiculum.

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On the whole I agree the case should have been overturned and I am not very favorable about Obama's pick for SC. I think she is too radical and in her zeal to improve Mexican Americans she does not seem to be balanced for the justice for everyone. That is my impression after reading some of her words and speeches.

However,

Quote:

This is not a condemnation of African-Americans. They easily could have, and I believe would have, duplicated the Asian experience, if the Great Society had not created a culture of entitlement and so-called leaders like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton had not encouraged complaint and victimhood over self-reliance and achievement.

I think Al Sharpton and Jackson are not nothing more than attention seekers and not to be taken seriously.

Having said that and meaning it; acknowledging the true state of the environment that a majority of blacks exist and live in is in no way encouraging victim hood. You can not fix things if you can't identify the problem. I think perhaps quotas were well intentioned but the reality of it has not worked and is in fact not very fair. It is not only African Americans who live in an environment which discourages higher quality of learning but poorer whites and other minorities. When you live in poverty or close to it is just hard to overcome all the obstacles without a lot of hard work on your part plus support from the communities with workable programs and the like. If something turns out not to work, try something else, but don't just say, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps regardless of the obstacles in your path; too many will not make it and then the poverty of the community will just keep continuing. Try to create programs to facilitate the desired results and the whole community profits as well as the overall economy and individuals who give as well as they get. When Clinton created those programs in the welfare programs where single moms had to work while receiving welfare benefits, that was a good program. We need more initiatives such as that. Sometimes people are in a such as a shape they can not work, if they are disabled too much or too old they will need life time assistance (or long term); but on the whole I think programs should be created geared towards improving the education of the poor (whatever race or color or situation) so they can get jobs. But then the jobs have got to be there for them to get...

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@revel,

revel wrote:

On the whole I agree the case should have been overturned and I am not very favorable about Obama's pick for SC. I think she is too radical and in her zeal to improve Mexican Americans she does not seem to be balanced for the justice for everyone. That is my impression after reading some of her words and speeches.

In your extensive reading of Sotomayor's words and speeches, did you ever get to the part where she says that she's Puerto Rican, not Mexican?

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@joefromchicago,

my bad I guess, sue me. Plus never said it was extensive reading, just mainly a cursory reading to get the feel of her, never heard of her before. Still, it remains my impression, I am willing to google up those readings which lead to my conclusions if you like.

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@revel,

Those Hispanics.... you can't expect revel to be able to tell them apart.

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Listen, ebrown, you can make something of it if you like, but I didn't mean anything by it. I am comfortable knowing I didn't mean anything by it. I am just not that culturally savvy. There are a lot of different races or nationalities I would probably get wrong.

In any case, the following is one of the articles I was referring to.

Quote:

Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life.

Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown.

However, to understand takes time and effort, something that not all people are willing to give. For others, their experiences limit their ability to understand the experiences of others. Other simply do not care. Hence, one must accept the proposition that a difference there will be by the presence of women and people of color on the bench. Personal experiences affect the facts that judges choose to see. My hope is that I will take the good from my experiences and extrapolate them further into areas with which I am unfamiliar. I simply do not know exactly what that difference will be in my judging. But I accept there will be some based on my gender and my Latina heritage.

I also hope that by raising the question today of what difference having more Latinos and Latinas on the bench will make will start your own evaluation. For people of color and women lawyers, what does and should being an ethnic minority mean in your lawyering? For men lawyers, what areas in your experiences and attitudes do you need to work on to make you capable of reaching those great moments of enlightenment which other men in different circumstances have been able to reach. For all of us, how do change the facts that in every task force study of gender and race bias in the courts, women and people of color, lawyers and judges alike, report in significantly higher percentages than white men that their gender and race has shaped their careers, from hiring, retention to promotion and that a statistically significant number of women and minority lawyers and judges, both alike, have experienced bias in the courtroom?

Each day on the bench I learn something new about the judicial process and about being a professional Latina woman in a world that sometimes looks at me with suspicion. I am reminded each day that I render decisions that affect people concretely and that I owe them constant and complete vigilance in checking my assumptions, presumptions and perspectives and ensuring that to the extent that my limited abilities and capabilities permit me, that I reevaluate them and change as circumstances and cases before me requires. I can and do aspire to be greater than the sum total of my experiences but I accept my limitations. I willingly accept that we who judge must not deny the differences resulting from experience and heritage but attempt, as the Supreme Court suggests, continuously to judge when those opinions, sympathies and prejudices are appropriate.

[urlhttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/us/politics/15judge.text.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print]source[/url]

To my mind she is saying that because Latino women (right enough label?) have lived with prejudice more than white men (she is right they have) they would make a more a favorable humane decision and if we had more Latino women then we would have more data so to speak to form that conclusion. I think she is just too far off the deep end and is too much an advocate biased in favor of her race and gender for judges. She is not denying that white men have made good decisions, she just seem to feel Latino women would make more good decisions quicker and more often.

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Supreme Court decides Ricci Case

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