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Supreme Court decides Ricci Case

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:11 am
@ebrown p,
No, it isn't backwards. It is in absolutely the correct order.
1. Affirmative action was necessary to break down cultural taboos and barriers.
2. Those cultural taboos and barriers are now down, legally and effectively in most of society with laws in place to prevent blatant inappropriate discrimination.
3. Continuing Affirmative Action, even on a limited basis, now inhibits the ability of the formerly oppressed to achieve effective equal footing in our society due to the perception that their status is awarded rather than earned. This creates unnecessary resentment and actually fosters a racism/bigotry that would likely otherwise not exist.
4. It is better now for the approval/disapproval of society to take care of the remaining racists and bigots among us and, if we now demand a totally colorblind society, those racists and bigots will be increasingly marginalized.
5. It is patronizing and demeaning to assume that persons of a certain color or status in society are incapable of accomplishing their goals unless they have government intervention.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:12 am
@ebrown p,



Affirmative action will come in handy when you white folks are a minority.
0 Replies
 
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:12 am
@joefromchicago,
You lie and the Democrats lie and the Republicans lie and Al Sharpton lie.

There is a quota system and the City of New Haven acknowledged the quota system based upon the results of their test that a independent party created. The results and the facts further demonstrate that the quota system is alive.

You are blind, ignorant or a racist if you think otherwise.

If no "quota system" exists as you state, the City would have promoted those who qualified. They did not and the USSC admonished the City.

Wake up, stop making excuses and telling lies.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:14 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

If you want to defend racists and bigots, that's your problem. And if you want to delude yourself into thinking that you're doing it for the benefit of the victims of racism and bigotry, then go for it. I'm sure Jesus still loves you.


An interesting post that rather well illustrates the very quality of thinking that it purports to condemn.
0 Replies
 
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:18 am
@ebrown p,
You do not even understand why Affirmative Action was created and how it was to be used. You are describing Affirmative Action as a quota system.

Dumb Racists comments like this annoy me...

Quote:
The fact is that the majority of wealth, power and opportunity in the United States is in the hands of white people.


What would you expect from people who make up more than 50% of the population?

Justice Roberts (I believe) was right on with this simple comment that you should try to understand.

If you want to stop discrimination, stop discriminating.

There is no "reverse discrimination".
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:36 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Then explain why the USSC UPHELD quotas for the university of Michigan law school.

I can't explain that, mostly because it didn't happen. Here's what Justice O'Connor wrote in her majority opinion in Grutter v. Bollinger:
Quote:
We find that the Law School’s admissions program bears the hallmarks of a narrowly tailored plan. As Justice Powell made clear in Bakke, truly individualized consideration demands that race be used in a flexible, nonmechanical way. It follows from this mandate that universities cannot establish quotas for members of certain racial groups or put members of those groups on separate admissions tracks. See id., at 315"316. Nor can universities insulate applicants who belong to certain racial or ethnic groups from the competition for admission. Ibid. Universities can, however, consider race or ethnicity more flexibly as a “plus” factor in the context of individualized consideration of each and every applicant. Ibid.

We are satisfied that the Law School’s admissions program, like the Harvard plan described by Justice Powell, does not operate as a quota.

(emphasis added)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:37 am
@Yankee,
I haven't conducted a study, but I bet if you did one in Japan, you would find that the majority of wealth, power, and opportunity in Japan is in the hands of Japanese people. And what do you bet that it is mostly Germans holding most of the wealth, power, and opportunity in Germany. Etc. ?

Thomas Sowell has done a lot of research and commentary on the phenomenon of racism and bigotry and what results from that. His conclusions are somewhat illustrated in this passage:

Quote:
Despite whatever the left may say, or even believe, about their concern for the poor, their actual behavior shows their interest in the poor to be greatest when the poor can be used as a focus of the Left's denunciations of society.

When the poor stop being poor, they lose the attention of the Left. What actions on the part of the poor, or what changes in the economy, have led to drastic reductions in poverty seldom arouse much curiosity, much less celebration.

This is not a new development in our times. Back in the 19th century, when Karl Marx presented his vision of the impoverished working class rising to attack and destroy capitalism, he was disappointed when the workers grew less revolutionary over time, as their standards of living improved.

At one point, Marx wrote to his disciples: “The working class is revolutionary or it is nothing.”

Think about that. Millions of human beings mattered to him only in so far as they could serve as cannon fodder in his jihad against the existing society.

If they refused to be pawns in his ideological game, then they were “nothing.”
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Mjc2NGM4NTBmYmUwYzRkYzNmMGVkMWZhYjU5ZjEzNDE=
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:38 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
No, it isn't backwards. It is in absolutely the correct order.
1. Affirmative action was necessary to break down cultural taboos and barriers.
No it wasn't. Affirmative action is necessary because our system was blatantly unfair because of systemic racism.
2. Those cultural taboos and barriers are now down, legally and effectively in most of society with laws in place to prevent blatant inappropriate discrimination.
No they aren't. There is no question that things have gotten better. But there is still the legacy of racism that makes it more difficult for minorities to be successful.
3. Continuing Affirmative Action, even on a limited basis, now inhibits the ability of the formerly oppressed to achieve effective equal footing in our society due to the perception that their status is awarded rather than earned. This creates unnecessary resentment and actually fosters a racism/bigotry that would likely otherwise not exist.
This is possible, but unsupported. This may create some reason for some people to grumble, but I find the idea that this creates widespread problems dubious at best. And why should we care if people fostering racism/bigotry (and lets have people take responsibility for their bigotry here) have unecessary resentment.
4. It is better now for the approval/disapproval of society to take care of the remaining racists and bigots among us and, if we now demand a totally colorblind society, those racists and bigots will be increasingly marginalized.
The term "colorblind society" is silly. You haven't given a reasonable way to take care of racists and bigots.
5. It is patronizing and demeaning to assume that persons of a certain color or status in society are incapable of accomplishing their goals unless they have government intervention.
No it is not. The government intervention may be an attack on institutions and systems that are implicated as harboring racism. It is not an attack on minorities.


Answer me this, Foxy...

On average (for intellectually challenged white people here, that means dividing the amount of the advantage by the number of people) white people have far more wealth (again, per person), more power and more opportunity than any other minority.

If the system is now equal.... why do you think that is?
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:39 am
@Yankee,
Yankee wrote:

You lie and the Democrats lie and the Republicans lie and Al Sharpton lie.

Then I'm in good company.

Yankee wrote:
You are blind, ignorant or a racist if you think otherwise.

Well, I can't be a racist -- if I were, Foxfyre would have jumped to my defense by now.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:45 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

what does "imminently qualified" mean? Smile

That's cold. Interesting, when you consider how that slip affects her message, but cold.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:46 am
@ebrown p,

"On average (for intellectually challenged white people here, that means dividing the amount of the advantage by the number of people)
white people have far more wealth (again, per person), more power and more opportunity than any other minority."


Alex, what are things an intellectually challenged racist bigot would say?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:48 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
2. Those cultural taboos and barriers are now down, legally and effectively in most of society with laws in place to prevent blatant inappropriate discrimination.

What fantasy world do you inhabit?

How about just preventing inappropriate discrimination? Why does blatant enter into it?
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:56 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

What I dont understand about the whole thing is why some people have claimed the test was flawed, or that is was somehow racist.

I have never understood how a test of knowledge can be racist in any way.
If everyone that took the test were firefighters, then they should all have had the same knowledge.

The test was based on knowledge of the job, how to approach different situations, how to command fire scenes, knowledge of equipment and policies, and basic firefighting knowledge.
So how could such a test be racist in anyway?

I remember back in the day when I took the SAT. Another girl, who happened to be black, scored far worse than I thought she should have. She was very smart, competed with me for top scores in some of our advanced placement classes.

She remembered one question in particular. It involved the word "dinghy" which she had never encountered before.

This test, which was designed to predict academic success, measured the wrong thing. And it affected her because she never encountered the word "dinghy".

Guess which one of us dropped out of college....
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:00 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Then explain why the USSC UPHELD quotas for the university of Michigan law school.

http://www.adversity.net/UMich/MIMainFrame.htm

You can download the USSC decisions from that page and read them yourself.


The 1978 Supreme Court decision in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke allowed race to be a consideration in admissions policy, but held that quotas were illegal.

The 2003 Supreme Court decision in Grutter v. Bollinger held that the University of Michigan Law School admissions policy was not a "quota" system. The case was heard in conjunction with Gratz v. Bollinger which dealt with University of Michigan's undergraduate admissions policy. The Supreme Court struck down the undergraduate policy because it was deemed to be a quota system. The Supreme Court announced the two decisons on the same day. (The policy for the law school was upheld, but the undergraduate policy was struck down).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:02 pm
@DrewDad,
Who is to decide what is inappropriate discrimination? (And it is HERE that Sotomayer's judicial sense actually does become important--we would expect all SCOTUS members to deal appropriately with blatant discrimination. But what about those cases with some wiggle room or when qualifications are put ahead of race as in Ricci?)

I discriminated every single time I hired somebody for a new job. I didn't care about their race or ethnicity or country of origin or gender. I did care whether I thought they would add quality to the existing team or be good in the position for which I was hiring them. For some positions I hired the best qualifications I could get. Some I hired just because I intuitively knew the person would be excellent in a job where a certain demeanor or people skills was important. I was rarely wrong.

So if the better qualified person on paper who wasn't hired decided to make an issue of it, would that be 'blatant discrimination'? Or 'inappropriate discrimination'? Or is there no wiggle room at all for instinct, judgment, and ability to select the right person for a job.

As it is, even though some of this happened when Affirmative Action was at its most prominent peak, nobody tested me on it. I had one discrimination case filed by a militant type who claimed she wasn't hired because she was black. Turned out she never turned in her application.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:24 pm
And to the rest of you who seem focused on the vernacular or the way I express myself or on me rather than the subject being discussed, I will post this again as you all apparently missed it the first time. For the cognitively challenged, please substitute 'those who are discriminated against' for 'the poor' and you might have a chance to get the point.

Quote:
Despite whatever the left may say, or even believe, about their concern for the poor, their actual behavior shows their interest in the poor to be greatest when the poor can be used as a focus of the Left's denunciations of society.

When the poor stop being poor, they lose the attention of the Left. What actions on the part of the poor, or what changes in the economy, have led to drastic reductions in poverty seldom arouse much curiosity, much less celebration.

This is not a new development in our times. Back in the 19th century, when Karl Marx presented his vision of the impoverished working class rising to attack and destroy capitalism, he was disappointed when the workers grew less revolutionary over time, as their standards of living improved.

At one point, Marx wrote to his disciples: “The working class is revolutionary or it is nothing.”

Think about that. Millions of human beings mattered to him only in so far as they could serve as cannon fodder in his jihad against the existing society.

If they refused to be pawns in his ideological game, then they were “nothing.”
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Mjc2NGM4NTBmYmUwYzRkYzNmMGVkMWZhYjU5ZjEzNDE=

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:


I discriminated every single time I hired somebody for a new job.

Of course. I did too.
As far as I understand, every choice is a discrimination,
unless ALL candidates r chosen.
When we select food from a menu in a restaurant,
we discriminate against whatever we don 't order.

It was a compliment to be deemed a man of discrimination.

If there were a motto of discrimination
(quoting my ex-girlfriend, Marilyn) it 'd be:
"take the best and leave the rest."





David
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:57 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
If you want to defend racists and bigots, that's your problem. And if you want to delude yourself into thinking that you're doing it for the benefit of the victims of racism and bigotry, then go for it. I'm sure Jesus still loves you.


Will you defend a racist or a bigots right to speak their opinions in public?
Debra Law
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:58 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Debra Law wrote:

The Constitution grants power to Congress to enact laws to remedy discrimination. The law clearly and unambiguously requires employers to consider the disparate impact that hiring or promotion methods may have on minorities. Both the city and the court of appeals applied the law as written. The ultra-conservative wing of the Supreme Court, however, placed adherence to its own ideology above the law. Nothing new there.

When all is said and done, 21 federal judges considered the question presented. 11 of them (including Sotomayor) ruled one way; 10 of them ruled the other way. The final outcome of this case will not affect Sotomayor's nomination. It will, however, give vast numbers of minorities more reason to distrust and vote against conservative Republicans who clobber them at every opportunity.


The law does not guarantee equal, or, as some wish, better outcomes to minorities, although many would like to imagine it does. That was the central issue in this case. The long-standing division of judicial opinions on this issue was clearly evident in the splits that occurred both with the Federal appellate court and the Supreme Court. Moreover it is a reflection of the obvious fact that affirmative action, as some would like to see it applied, is quite obviously legalized racial discrimination.

In my opinion we have long passed the point at which affirmative action delivers any net benefit to our society or even to the groups it purports to help. The process itself creates more antagonism than it alleviates, and encourages attitudes that do more harm than good for its supposed beneficiaries.


118 employees took a test:

17 white employees passed the test;

2 Hispanic employees passed the test;

0 black employees passed the test.

The results of the test demonstrate a significant disparity of a pass rate among racial lines--

I never said that the LAW requires an equal or better outcome for minorities. However, the LAW does require a employer to consider the disparate impact that the testing may have had on minorities. Ricci sued the city for doing exactly what the law required the city to do.

According to your argument, the employer must simply assume that white people possess superior intellect and test taking skills entitling them to promotions without questioning the underlying factors that may have contributed to the disparity of the results and the adverse impact on minorities. According to you, a refusal to certify the highly skewed test results in order to evaluate and determine whether the test was skewed in favor of whites is RACIAL DISCRIMINATION against white people. According to you, the reverse-bigots and the reverse-racists want to keep the poor white man down and give them inferior lazy blacks an unearned hand-out. Shucks! You argue that a good faith effort by the employer to end disparate impact discrimination does more harm than good for its supposed beneficiaries.

Your argument, however, is simply fodder for ignoring disparate impact discrimination and for encouraging the true bigots and racists to design tests that will weed out minorities.

Debra Law
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 01:07 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
2. Those cultural taboos and barriers are now down, legally and effectively in most of society with laws in place to prevent blatant inappropriate discrimination.

What fantasy world do you inhabit?

How about just preventing inappropriate discrimination? Why does blatant enter into it?


Oh. According to Foxy, intentional discrimination is wrong. If you tell a black person that you're intentionally denying him employment or a promotion because of his skin color, then that's blatant and illegal. But if you design a test that is subtle in its application wherein white people get the jobs and promotions, then that's okay. The bigots and the racists may lawfully use "under the table" deceptive, non-obvious methods to weed out the minorities.
0 Replies
 
 

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