8
   

The impending death of evangelical Christianity?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 09:41 am
@slkshock7,
And has been for some time, given the lesser and lesser participation in Christianity that we see in the society.

Cycloptichorn
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 09:55 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown,
No, I think you're reading too much into the article...here's the whole quote that you begun...

Quote:
Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.

The evangelical investment in moral, social, and political issues has depleted our resources and exposed our weaknesses. Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence.


The author and I are not suggesting that the war is not wrong, simply the battle tactics Christians have been using have been wrong. If we practiced our faith more diligently...then we'd have a far greater impact on the "grassroots" and the societal change we seek would occur more naturally.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 10:01 am
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
If what you say is accurate about being a true Christian, then "true Christians" will be left behind as other parts of society continue to move forward. Hell, even the Amish drive cars now.


I didn't mean to imply that Christians hole up in a cave someplace praying and waiting for the second coming. Frankly the rub lies in the fact that your definition of "society moving forward" may be very different than mine.

slkshock7 - I'm perfectly comfortable with our definitions being different. As human history has diverged from such practices promoted by religions, I think we have improved vastly. In the case of Christianity, we have moved away from slavery and subjugating women. We have moved away from a flat earth, and through many blossoming ages of great sciences (and many more to come). These things are good.

I'm perfectly comfortable with letting us disagree on what the definition of "society moving forward" is. Those things in Christianity that I believe help promote our society are not unique to Christianity, and much the like with other religions. Religion's claim to some values such as the importance of family is nothing more than sticking a flag in the ground and claiming intellectual real estate. To me, those things are human values.

If you think society moving forward would be defined by a better adherence to a religion (I suspect your religion) then I'd be glad to hear your arguments as to why slavery should be reinstated, and why wives should be sub servant to their husbands. Stoning your children in public too while you're at it.

T
K
O
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 10:04 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

And has been for some time, given the lesser and lesser participation in Christianity that we see in the society.

Or perhaps the cognitive dissonance of Christianity participating lesser in Christianity itself because many understand that despite it being what they believe, it contains things that they themselves do not believe.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 09:39 am
@Diest TKO,
TKO wrote:
If you think society moving forward would be defined by a better adherence to a religion (I suspect your religion) then I'd be glad to hear your arguments as to why slavery should be reinstated, and why wives should be sub servant to their husbands. Stoning your children in public too while you're at it.


Well this is far outside the scope of this thread, but I'll respond anyway.

My religion doesn't condone slavery or stoning children. As for wives, the Bible advocates equality for wives, but submission (not subservience) when conflict can't be resolved otherwise. Of course this necessarily must be coupled with a husband dedicated to meeting and serving the needs of his wife. If you have a husband committed to serving his wife, and a wife commited to submitting when appropriate, the marriage is strong. Failure of either party to meet their respective obligation weakens the marriage.

Now perhaps you'd be so kind to express your arguments on why a society moving forward without benefit or compliance to any religious or moral code is better than one that does?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 09:54 am
@slkshock7,
Quote:

My religion doesn't condone slavery or stoning children.


Really? I could have swore I read in some book, can't remember the name of it, that this is exactly what it condones.

Cycloptichorn
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 11:14 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Well, Cyclo, when you remember exactly where, I'll address it...if need be.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 11:19 am
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

Well, Cyclo, when you remember exactly where, I'll address it...if need be.


Ah, I remembered; it was called 'The Bible.' It's right next to a bunch of rules that you choose to respect, but for some reason, this one, you don't.

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 01:56 pm
@Green Witch,
Quote:
Nonsense. Self-righteous, fundamentalism will never go out of style.


There is a reason for that. Human nature tends to stand in awe and wonder before the inexplicable. We enjoy, I presume, admiring things the more as we understand them less.

Maybe we are all hoping for a miracle and to denigrate the miraculous would shred all those hopes.

It's a problem science has in dealing with us dopes and dumbasses. The more it explains things the more banal and depressing they get and we don't much care for depression. It's a bit of a pisser to find out that all there is in this world is meaningless atoms in motion.

Such a view, if widely held, would shut down the lingerie industry overnight and that would be a dead loss IMHAHO. I believe in miracles.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 02:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Ahh, the Bible, yep that's my book....but I sure don't remember anything in there condoning slavery....give me the book/chapter/verse and I'll get you the answer....same with the stoning children bit....
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 02:53 pm
@slkshock7,
Slavery, Leviticus -

Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


Slavery, Exodus -

Quote:
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


Sex Slavery, again Exodus -

Quote:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


Slavery, Ephesians -

Quote:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)


Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy are your 'greatest hits' chapters when it comes to slavery.

And I'm not sure the bible specifically mentions stoning children, but I know it does mention stoning people to death many times. I'll have to hunt up some quotes.

Cycloptichorn
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 04:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

And I'm not sure the bible specifically mentions stoning children, but I know it does mention stoning people to death many times. I'll have to hunt up some quotes.

Here ya go.
in Deuteronomy 21:18 Moses wrote:
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 04:23 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
It is possible that the word slavery meant something different in those days than it does to you. You are defining it your own way for your own purposes. Many slaves rose to high office and wealth in the Classical era.

Being a slave meant a job and regular meals and often the alternative was much worse.

Many people nowadays use the expression "wage slaves". Quite a few of those also rise to high office and wealth.

You are making an assumption that your understanding of the word is shared by everyone else.
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 06:24 pm
@spendius,
I think it is quite clear that the word slavery as used in Cycloptichorn's citations means human beings bought and sold as property much the same as the slavery that was practiced in Britain, it's colonies and the early U.S.

The Bible even tells us how these slaves may be treated, i.e. you can beat the crap out of them so long as they don't die within a day or two.

Exodus 21:20-21
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 06:34 pm
@mesquite,
What's the proportion of blacks in US jails compared to the proportion in the population?

They didn't have a vast correctional bureaucracy in those days. I've heard of conscientious objectors being beaten to death in US prisons not that long ago. And I saw a 1927 headline in a newspaper saying that the sheriff was getting a posse up to "exterminate Indians".
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 06:36 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
It is possible that the word slavery meant something different in those days than it does to you.


Don't be a twat, Spendius. Honestly.

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 04:45 am
@Cycloptichorn,
You look well talking about honesty when you respond to a post in that time honoured manner. You're a slave to a depersonalised mechanism. You wouldn't be on here had you dropped out. You're not On the Road.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 07:05 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo

You are correct in that the ancients in the Bible tolerated slavery as an acceptable (albeit distasteful) labor practice of the day. However, what the ancients practiced and God approved of were often very different things. What you clearly see in the Bible are numerous commandments and laws to restrict and regulate the practice, some of which you've quoted yourself.

Furthermore in the New Testament there are many verses that acknowledge slavery (servanthood) as a human institution of our fallen state, whereas God sees (and desires us to see) all men as equal

Quote:


There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

...knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:8)

And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:9)

...a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)


So I'll give you that slavery was a common and accepted practice in Biblical times and even go so far as to admit that the Bible does not explicitly condemn it. However, taking into consideration the numerous verses on humane treatment of slaves, spiritual equality and social justice, I'd still argue that the Bible and God do not condone (i.e., accept without apology)slavery.

Having taken this rabbit trail down the path a bit, I'm fairly confident that neither of us has convinced the other and it is highly unlikely we ever will. There are at least five other threads on A2K dealing with the slavery in the Bible topic and would suggest further discussion to one of those threads...let this one get back to the reasons for the apparent decay of evangelical christian political power.
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 07:47 am
@mesquite,
Mesquite,
I figured this would be the verse that would be quoted. The "son" spoken of here is accused of gluttony and drunkeness (hardly the sins of your typical child), so it is reasonable to conclude that he is an adult. So we are not talking about stoning some ten year old child because he refuses to go to bed when told to.

In this case, we have an adult who is in active rebellion against his parents, being disrespectful, apparently getting drunk often and indulging in any number of other sins. One also has to consider the familial aspects of that ancient time...families were much closer, living together and supporting each other far into old age of the parents. Adult sons typically continued their father's business or vocation and remained responsible for taking care of their aged parents until they died. This son has apparently abrogated all those responsibilities...he is, in effect, incorrigible. Thus the parents, in desperation, turn to the civic authorities to help turn him around, and yes, if he still cannot be corrected, stoning is conducted by the authorities.

This is not all that different from parents nowadays who, out of desperation, turn to the civic authorities when their children are out of control or a threat to themselves or their livelihood. Of course, these days we typically send them to rehab, juvenile hall or if their addiction/disobedience turns violent and they are adults, we send them to prison. We certainly don't execute them for disobedience. But those were harsher times, where the family's survival was entirely dependent on a son's ability to "bring home the bacon". This is a case which is akin to parental abuse/neglect and certainly not a case of parents wishing to stone little johnny because he won't stop pulling his sister's pigtails.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 08:22 am
Not all that different?

The difference is publically accepted murder you idiot.
K
O
 

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