17
   

Flight 1549 praise is being over done.

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 09:03 am
@farmerman,
It would seem that we have no one on this thread with more then my very minor flight training to address this issue.

I find that amazing that with the millions of license pilots in the US alone that not one of our little group has any more experience then I do here. Yes, my background is fairly minor however, it seem that I am the only one with any background at all in this area.

Yes, you people seem to have a strong emotional need for heroes and when face with logic had now turn to insults. I feel sad for you guys if that is all you have to fall back on.

If you wish however to hear about real heroes and real flying skills I would suggest starting with googling the story of flight 232. The flying skill level shown to get that cripple aircraft anywhere near to a landing went far far beyond the normal level of skills shown in the water landing off New York.

After that try googling flight 143 where the they ran out of fuel at 40,000 feet and needed to land at a raceway in front of a crowd watching the auto races that day and everyone walk away from that landing also.

Here is a third off airport landing with engines out in a hail storm of all things.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In May 1988, a more serious incident occurred as TACA Flight 110 from Belize to New Orleans, Louisiana, was descending to land. This 737 was passing through a series of thunderstorms when it too suffered a double flameout. The engines had been throttled back for landing so the internal heat was minimal. The storm was strong enough that the engines ingested heavy rain and hail that simply put out the flame heat source. The crewmembers managed to briefly restart the engines but were forced to shut them down again because of overheating. The pilot managed to pull off an amazing emergency landing as he glided the plane to touch down on a grass strip next to a levee embankment along a lake. The passengers and crew evacuated using escape chutes with no injuries. The 737 was recovered and is still flying today for Southwest Airlines.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To bad all those situations did not happen off New York during a slow news week.






farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 09:11 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
It would seem that we have no one on this thread with more then my very minor flight training to address this issue.

Im not saying, but there are several people with flight training that makes yours look like flying an RC unit in a rink.
My question is , why do you distinguish those other successful landings in adverse conditions with the 1549 flight since all the others seemed to garner praises and accolades for the crews?

Ive never landed in a river (but I have landed on a drill rig upide down in a chopper). In my case, we got blinded by a bad wind gust as we were flaring to land on the pad and got flipped over. I was belted in in the seat next to the pilot and only received some minor bruises.

We bought our pilot many beers because he engaged fire surpression before we even hit and bounced in the rigging. (Ya never want a fire on an offshore drill rig.)
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 09:56 am
@farmerman,
I have no problem with the pilot being praise and if I had been on that flight I would had been kissing his feets also.

It is also a nice way of ending his career as he seem about to hit the FAA age limit for jet passenger pilots soon. Off hand I think the age limit is still 60.

The subject of this thread was not that no praise was call for but that it was being overdone mainly because it happen off New York instead of say New Orlean for example.

Oh why would people with more then the minor flight training that I happen to have keep it a dark secret on this thread?

Side note concerning RC models you had not live until you are trying to land and some fools with RC models are doing loops over the landing field.

One of my fellow ultralight pilots once got so annoy that he made some of them eat dirt by doing a fast pass at three/four feet above ground level.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:04 am
@BillRM,
Bill said:
Quote:
The subject of this thread was not that no praise was call for but that it was being overdone mainly because it happen off New York instead of say New Orlean for example.


Bullshit. If it happened off the coast of New Orleans the headline would have read, 'Racism? Think again....Katrina avenged....'









0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 10:26 am
I can't recall another instance in which a commercial plane came down anywhere and everyone made it out safely.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 11:39 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Oh why would people with more then the minor flight training that I happen to have keep it a dark secret on this thread?
.They dont Bill. Its that only a few threads are about flight or aeronautics. I recall 2 threads in the past year.
!about the new Airbus 380 and
2One about the PBS series entitled "Carrier" (about the life aboard ana ircraft carrier)
George ob, who was the CO of a jet squadron (I believe that was his duty), had some valuable insights (based on his experience as the captain of a carrier).

One of our (now deceased) members, Timberland, was a pilot and flew a Citabria as I recall.

WE have, from time to time, threads about these skills and maybe because Im an older timer than you, I recall these members and their experiences .
NOONE is keeping anything a dark secret, youre just being a bit overly sensitive.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 12:30 pm
@NickFun,
See my posting on the plane that landed on a levie bank and the plane that landed at a race track.

Or are you thinking of just a water landing?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 12:40 pm
@NickFun,
For water landings alone here the history.

On 6 August 2005, Tuninter Flight 1153 (an ATR 72) ditched off the Sicilian coast after running out of fuel. Of 39 aboard, 20 survived with injuries including serious burns. The plane's wreck was found in three pieces. The survival rate was 51%.
On 16 January 2002, Garuda Indonesia Flight 421 (a Boeing 737) successfully ditched into the Bengawan Solo River near Yogyakarta, Java Island after experiencing a twin engine flameout during heavy precipitation and hail. The pilots tried to restart the engines several times before making the decision to ditch the aircraft. Of the 60 occupants, one flight attendant was killed. The survival rate was 98%.[9] Photographs taken shortly after evacuation show that the plane came to rest in knee-deep water.[10]
On 23 November 1996, Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961 (a Boeing 767-260ER), ditched in the Indian Ocean near Comoros after running out of fuel, killing 125 of the 175 passengers and crew on board. The crash landing followed a hijacking of the aircraft and reports indicate that there was fighting between flight crew and the hijackers at the time of impact. Although most passengers survived the initial impact, many died after inflating their life vests while still inside the fuselage, preventing their escape from the sinking wreckage. The survival rate was 29%.
On 2 May 1970, ALM Flight 980 (a McDonnell Douglas DC-9-33CF), ditched in mile-deep water after running out of fuel during multiple attempts to land at Princess Juliana International Airport on the island of Saint Maarten in the Netherlands Antilles under low-visibility weather. Of 63 occupants, 40 survivors were recovered by U.S. military helicopters.[11] The survival rate was 63%.
On 21 August 1963, an Aeroflot jet powered Tupolev Tu-124 ditched into the Neva River in Leningrad after running out of fuel. The aircraft floated and was towed to shore by a tugboat which it had nearly hit as it came down on the water. The tug rushed to the floating aircraft and pulled it with its passengers near to the shore where the passengers disembarked onto the tug; all 52 on board escaped without injuries.[12] The survival rate was 100%.
On Oct. 4, 1960, 62 people died when Eastern Air Lines Flight 375 (Lockheed Electra four-engine turbo-prop) plunged wing-first into Boston Harbor after flying into a flock of starlings shortly after takeoff. Three engines lost power, the plane stalled and spun, crashed into water 200 yards offshore, and broke in half. Nine of the 10 survivors had serious injuries. It was the first commercial airline crash in Logan Airport's history, the deadliest air disaster in New England history at the time, and it remains the most deadly crash in US history involving a bird strike.[13] The survival rate was 14%.
In October 1956, Pan Am Flight 943 (a Boeing 377) ditched northeast of Hawaii, after losing two of its four engines. The aircraft was able to circle around USCGC Pontchartrain until daybreak, when it ditched; all 31 on board survived.[14][15] The survival rate was 100%.
In April 1956, Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 2 (also a Boeing 377) ditched into Puget Sound after the flight engineer forgot to close the cowl gills on the plane's engines. All aboard escaped the aircraft after a textbook landing, but four passengers and one flight attendant succumbed either to drowning or to hypothermia before being rescued. The survival rate was 87%.
On 19 June 1954, a Swissair Convair CV-240 ditched into the English Channel. All three crew and three of the five passengers survived. The survival rate was 75%.
On April 16, 1952, the prototype de Havilland Australia DHA-3 Drover was ditched in the Bismarck Sea between Wewak and Manus Island. The port propeller failed, a propeller blade penetrated the fuselage and the pilot was rendered unconscious; the ditching was performed by a passenger. The survival rate was 100%.

[edit] Planes landing on water for other reasons
Aircraft also sometimes end up in water by running off the end of runways, landing in water short of the end of a runway, or even forcibly flown into the water during homicidal events. While such incidents are just as rare as water ditching and are not quite water landings, the passengers do find themselves swimming. Twice at LaGuardia Airport, aircraft have rolled into the East River.

On 3 February 2000, Trans Arabian Air Transport Flight 310 (a Boeing 707-351(C)) carrying cargo grossly overshot the landing strip at Mwanza Airport after a first attempt failed and eventually landed in the middle of Lake Victoria. The plane continued floating after the landing and all five crew survived, some with light injuries.[16]
On 23 November 1996, Ethiopian 961 (a Boeing 767-200ER) ditched in shallow water 500 meters from land after being hijacked and running out of fuel. Unable to operate flaps, it impacted at high speed, dragging its left wingtip before tumbling and breaking into three pieces. The panicking hijackers were fighting the pilots for the control of the plane at the time of the impact, which caused the plane to roll just before hitting the water, and the subsequent wingtip hitting the water and breakup are a result of this struggle in the cockpit. Of 175 on board, 52 survived. Some passengers were killed on impact or trapped in the cabin when they inflated their life vests before exiting. Most of the survivors were found hanging onto a section of the fuselage that remained floating. The survival rate was 30%.
On 12 September 1993, while landing in poor weather conditions at Papeete Faaa airport, Tahiti, an Air France Boeing 747 registered F-GITA hydroplaned, overshot the runway and ended in a lagoon. All 272 passengers and crew evacuated successfully, even though the engines were still running and there was a risk of ingestion.[17] The survival rate was 100%.
In 1993 China Airlines Flight 605 (Boeing 747-409) ended up in water after it overran runway 13 at Kai Tak International Airport on landing during a typhoon with wind gusting to gale force. All of the 396 occupants donned life-vests, boarded the eight slide/rafts and no fatalities resulted. The airframe remained above water even after the aircraft was evacuated.[18]
In 1989, USAir 5050, a Boeing 737-401 with 63 people aboard overran the runway, landing in the East River and breaking into three pieces, sustained two deaths.[19]
In 1985 a DC-10, of American Airlines taking off from Muñoz Marín Airport in Puerto Rico to Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport in Texas overran the runway and nosedived into a nearby lake. No one was injured.
World Airways Flight 30 slid of the runway and landed in the bay.
In 1982, Air Florida Flight 90 went down in the Potomac river after taking off from Washington National Airport. Only 6 out of 79 passengers and crew survived the initial crash, with one of the survivors eventually drowning after helping others to safety.
On 7 August 1980, a Tupolev 154B-1 operated by Tarom Romanian Airlines ditched in the water, 300m short of the runway at Nouadhibou Airport (NDB/GQPP), Mauritania. 1 passenger out of 168 passengers and crew died. The survival rate was 99%.
In 1978 National Airlines Flight 193 a Boeing 727 Trijet, unintentionally landed in the waters of Escambia Bay near Pensacola Florida after coming down short of the runway during a foggy approach. There were 3 fatalities among 52 passengers and 6 crewmembers, a 95% survival rate. [20][21]
On 22 November 1968 Japan Airlines Flight 2, a DC-8-62 landed short of the runway in San Francisco Bay on approach to San Francisco International Airport. There were no fatalities, and the aircraft itself was in good enough condition to be removed from the water, rebuilt, and flown again.

[edit] Crashing
There is a distinction between a controlled ditching and simply crashing (not even crash-landing) into the water; the latter is capable of killing everyone upon impact and disintegrating the plane. For example:

Armavia Flight 967 killed all 113 aboard in 2006;
Alaska Airlines Flight 261 killed all 88 aboard in 2000;
Kenya Airways Flight 431: 10 of 179 (6%) survived in a sea crash off Côte d'Ivoire in 2000;
EgyptAir Flight 990 killed all 217 aboard in 1999;
Swissair Flight 111 killed all 229 aboard in 1998;
SilkAir Flight 185 killed all 104 aboard in 1997; and
American Airlines Flight 320: 8 of 73 (11%) survived in a landing in New York City's East River in 1959.
On a smaller scale, John F. Kennedy, Jr. and his two passengers died in a water crash. As pilot and columnist Patrick Smith comments, these crashes tend to be more memorable than controlled water landings, perhaps fueling the public's suspicions of the survivability of aircraft that hit water.[22]


[edit] See also
Intrepid
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 01:25 pm
@BillRM,
What the hell was the point of this rambling post about water ditching that resulted in loss of life.

You have gone around in so many circles that you don't even know what you are talking about. Much less sticking to the topic of your own thread. If it wasn't entertaining to watch your poor command of the English language and your odd points of view I would have put you on ignore long ago.

However, I don't see any value in continuing in this thread.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 01:39 pm
@Intrepid,
What you problem?

I was clearly replying to the following by Nickfun.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't recall another instance in which a commercial plane came down anywhere and everyone made it out safely.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hardly seem to be going around in circles.

Have you taken your meds lately?
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 05:25 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
The subject of this thread was not that no praise was call for but that it was being overdone mainly because it happen off New York instead of say New Orlean for example.


The fact that it did occur off the shore of New York and New Jersey in the middle of winter in freezing temperatures meant anyone in the water had less than 10 minutes before they died. That's why there is so much more attention and praise given to the successful ditching than there would be in New Orleans. It wasn't just the skilled landing, it was the precise location of that landing, the air and water temperatures, and the swift response from civilian marine companies as well as emergency responders. Had they been even five minutes later in getting some of those people out of the water, there would indeed have been some deaths.

You need to learn more about the specific details of the ditch and rescue. Here's a place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549

Besides all that, this says all I need to know about the praise-worthiness of the event. You wanted to hear from experienced pilots and they've spoken loudly and clearly in disagreement of your assessment:

US Airways Flight 1549 Crew receive prestigious Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators Award

London, UK, 22 January 2009, The Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN), a City of London Livery Company, whose Patron is HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and Grand Master, HRH The Duke of York, has awarded a prestigious award, The Master’s Medal, to the crew (air and cabin) of US Airways Flight 1549.

Under the command of Captain Chesley B (Sully) Sullenberger, the crew ensured the safety of all 146 passengers after executing an emergency ditching and evacuation of their Airbus 320 aircraft on the Hudson River, New York, on 15 January, following a catastrophic bird strike and double engine failure.

The Master’s Medal is rarely awarded and only for an outstanding aviation achievement, and at the discretion of the Master of The Guild, currently Air Commodore Rick Peacock-Edwards, who said:

“The reactions of all members of the crew, the split second decision making and the handling of this emergency and evacuation was `text book` and an example to us all. To have safely executed this emergency ditching and evacuation, with the loss of no lives, is a heroic and unique aviation achievement. It deserves the immediate recognition that has today been given by the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators’’.


The formal award of the Master’s Medal to the crew of US Airways Flight 1549 will be made later this year, most probably at The Guild’s prestigious Annual Trophies & Awards Banquet in the City of London’s Guildhall in October. The Guild is the premier organisation for aviators and was established in 1929 to maintain the highest standards of air safety through the promotion of good airmanship.


http://www.gapan.org/news/Masters%20Medal%20%20Press%20Release.pdf
-----------------

Who are the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_of_Air_Pilots_and_Air_Navigators

The Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN) is one of the Livery Companies of the City of London. The Guild was established in 1929 and was granted the status of a Livery Company in 1956. The Guild is responsible for advising the government on air safety and aeronautics.

-------------

Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 05:39 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
The subject of this thread was not that no praise was call for but that it was being overdone mainly because it happen off New York instead of say New Orlean for example.


Not true. Here is your originating post in which your main theme was that the calmness of the flight crew was being overly praised in the media. It mentions nothing about the location.

Quote:
I am amaze that the pilots of this fight are being praise so highly for not panicking and keeping calm and following their years of training.

Everyone who had any time at all in any type of aircraft had been in situations that had gone bad very bad and where you allow your training and your logic to take control.

Your emotions and your fears at such times are far in the background and this ability to perform in this kind of situation is common not uncommon in human beings.

I remember once taking off with my CG way off and I could not keep the nose of the plane down and was seconds from stalling out and the only emotion that I can remember having was a brief curse that a 747 pilot was at the field that day watching and I was about to [email protected]@#$# in front of him.

Emotions tend to happen after the fact not during the situation.


What you are doing is pulling a George Bush. You started with an uninformed opinion and when that got shot down, you kept piling on more assertions, hoping one of them will be accepted and will validate your original false premise. You haven't found any WMDs and have no endgame plan such as saying "I was wrong." You're now trying to rewrite the history of it in an attempt to save some face for having been so wrong in the first place.

It is time to recall the troops and head for home. Nothing more is being accomplished here by continuing.

Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 05:45 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

What you problem?

I was clearly replying to the following by Nickfun.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't recall another instance in which a commercial plane came down anywhere and everyone made it out safely.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hardly seem to be going around in circles.

Have you taken your meds lately?


What you problem, jackass?

You are going in so many circles that you must be getting dizzy.

You DID NOT give a valid reply to Nick. In every instance you posted, somebody died.

Butterflynet's last post summed things up perfectly.

Oh, and I do not need meds since I am healthy and of sound mind. You would be better served using your time learning to write proper English.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 05:51 pm
Here's another note of praise from the professionals about other professionals doing their jobs:

http://www.famri.org/Documents/USAirways_Flight_1549.pdf

FLIGHT ATTENDANT MEDICAL RESEARCH INSTITUTE

A Testament to Experienced Airline Flight Personnel Doing Their Jobs

As the news of the miraculous landing of US Airways Flight 1549 using the Hudson River as a landing strip unfolded on January 15, 2009, the world was awe struck at the skill, coordination and calm of the cockpit and cabin crew members which resulted in saving all their lives and those of their 150 passengers. The hair raising accounts of the landing of Airbus A320-214 abound, and the skill and quick thinking of Captain Chelsey B. Sullenberg III of Danville, California, with the assistance of his co-pilot Jeffrey B. Skiles of Madison, Wisconsin, will be recorded in the annals of aviation history as incredible mastery of landing a crippled aircraft without substantial injury or loss of life to those on board.

Indeed, the only injury sustained was by one of the three flight attendants, Doreen Welsh of Ambridge, Pennsylvania. Ms Welsh, assigned to the rear of the plane, was hurt when helping passengers in this section get out alive. When a passenger tried to open a rear door to escape and water came rushing in, Ms. Welsh secured the door and told the passengers to “turn around, you’ve got to get out on the wing.” With her colleagues, Donna Dent of Winston Salem, NC and Sheila Dail of Weaverville, NC, working the fore and middle sections, the flight attendants ushered the passengers to safety on the wings. What happened in the cabin can only be known by the flight attendants"who will tell you “it’s all in a day’s work”.

Flight Attendant Medical Research Institute salutes Captain Sullenberg, Co-pilot Skiles and Flight Attendants Dent, Welsh and Dail and their courageous actions in achieving an impossible feat. The next time a flight attendant calls attention to the safety video all passengers will be on full alert.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 07:05 pm
@Intrepid,
You DID NOT give a valid reply to Nick. In every instance you posted, somebody died.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can not read it would seem.

Please try to used that little mind of your to once more read the following.

In any case you are worthless and you will be the second person in my block file.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 21 August 1963, an Aeroflot jet powered Tupolev Tu-124 ditched into the Neva River in Leningrad after running out of fuel. The aircraft floated and was towed to shore by a tugboat which it had nearly hit as it came down on the water. The tug rushed to the floating aircraft and pulled it with its passengers near to the shore where the passengers disembarked onto the tug; all 52 on board escaped without injuries.[12] The survival rate was 100%.

On April 16, 1952, the prototype de Havilland Australia DHA-3 Drover was ditched in the Bismarck Sea between Wewak and Manus Island. The port propeller failed, a propeller blade penetrated the fuselage and the pilot was rendered unconscious; the ditching was performed by a passenger. The survival rate was 100%.

On 3 February 2000, Trans Arabian Air Transport Flight 310 (a Boeing 707-351(C)) carrying cargo grossly overshot the landing strip at Mwanza Airport after a first attempt failed and eventually landed in the middle of Lake Victoria. The plane continued floating after the landing and all five crew survived, some with light injuries.[16]


BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 07:16 pm
@Butrflynet,
As I had posted there is hardly anything impossible about the deed and it been done before. Please see either my long post about the history of ditching or my shorter post that contain a few examples of a 100 percent survive rate listed. The shorter list being needed for those who intellect does not allow them to read a longer list correctly.

True it was indeed some skillful flying and a great deal of luck combine with an ideal ditching location.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 07:19 pm
@BillRM,
Are you too stupid to use the quote function, or just lazy? My worthlessness is only your opinion and you have shown that your opinion is worth ****.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 07:19 pm
times are bad and getting worse, most of our leaders have failed us, most of the experts that we counted on to make us understand the dangers of our ways failed us, and we failed ourselves by not doing the right thing a lot of time. Heroes are very much in demand today, to give us hope for the future, to give us hope that we will see a better day, to give us hope that their are still people who are smart enough and brave enough to help us to get there.
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 07:20 pm
@BillRM,
Tell us another time it's been done Bill. I'm all ears and eyes. Here's what the captain himself said:

“I needed to touch down with the wings exactly level,” he said. “I needed to touch down with the nose slightly up. I needed to touch down at a " at a descent rate that was survivable. And I needed to touch down just above our minimum flying speed, but not below it. And I needed to make all these things happen simultaneously.”
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 07:35 pm
@Butrflynet,
What did I back down on? Under the conditions that exist on that day it is my opinion that almost any of the flight crews that took off from JFK could had done a similar landing if they had needed to do so.

Second no matter what the outcome would had been all of those crews would had sounded just as calm in dealing with the situation. You do not become a senior captain of a jet liner with 100,000 of hours flying if you are going to have panic in your voice when face with an in flight emergency.

The crew who did end up doing the ditching did some nice flying however and some praise is call for but that does not mean that other crews could not had match them if they needed to.

 

 
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