SPIRITUAL, BUT NOT RELIGIOUS

See, all this talk of 'defining' spirituality as a system just reads like arguments from people who have suffered through religion. Okay, so it's nebulous, and those who subscribe to sepcific New Age type concepts a la "I'm a crystal gazer," or "I channel the dead" are as kooky as any Catholic. However, if you define spirituality as simply being aware of the interactivity of the world around you, the binary code of nature, the recognition that it pays to be nice to other beings, human and non, well that's no belief system, it's just common sense. Wink

Again, we come down to semantics and definitions. My spiritual side predicts that this will turn into a circular argument.

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cav,

Definitions are indeed subjective. But please look up the definitions established in dictionaries. It is wholly dissimilar to the definitions you and fishin' propose.

If I decide to call anyone who eats tuna "spiritual " and came to this discussion based on that definition I'd be rightly chastised.

We don't need to define it, if you'd like to pick a dictionary we can use their definition.

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Craven -- Semantics then. Yup.

The underlying goal that I see for most philosophies and beliefs is to induce certain attitudes, perspectives, focus or state of mind in ones self. Get rid of the mumbo-jumbo, then anything that influences the way I am is therefore a spiritual matter.

Just to double-check, do you see any reification, personal mythology or material claims made in my first post? (#2 on this thread). My guess is it probably doesn't fit your idea of spirituality either, but those ideas comprise almost my entire definition of "spirit".

New Age hocus-focus really annoys me, by making physical claims when our way of being is just a spiritual focus or attitude. But get rid of the literal interpretation, and many mythologies can turn into useful poetry -- giving me insight into my values, meaning, and conscious focus.

It's not about emotions, feelings, or perceptions (psychology), nor about particular goals, rules or beliefs (dogma). More, it's about my esprit de corps, motivation, posture and awareness of each moment. Our way of being -- almost our very identity, but not quite.

In your dictionary what would this be called, instead of "spirituality"?

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spirit n. - 1. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
Incorporeal consciousness.

[Edit:] 5., 6., and 7. are pretty good too, but there are many definitions listed to choose from!

5. a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.

b. The essential nature of a person or group.

6. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.

7 a. An inclination or tendency of a specified kind: Her actions show a generous spirit.

b. A causative, activating, or essential principle: The couple's engagement was announced in a joyous spirit.

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Main Entry: 1spir·i·tu·al
Pronunciation: 'spir-i-ch&-w&l, -i-ch&l, -ich-w&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Late Latin; Middle French spirituel, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus
Date: 14th century
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : INCORPOREAL <man's spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : SPIRITUALISTIC
- spir·i·tu·al·ly adverb
- spir·i·tu·al·ness noun

Craven, I would agree that those who eat tuna are probably better defined as corporeal than spiritual. However, as times change, language changes. Maybe we can find a better term for what we're trying to get at, but I'm still with CodeBorg on this.

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CodeBorg,

IMO your first post fit my description of spiritual. Yes I believe it contained mythology.

And of course you reify. You declared it "sacred". Rolling Eyes

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CodeBorg wrote:

spirit n. - 1. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
Incorporeal consciousness.

Cool. Let's work with this definition:

A) there is no single vital "animating force".

B) there is no such thing as conciousness that is not corporeal.

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C) There is such thing as collective consciousness

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Sure, and it's very corporeal.

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Yes Craven, we are working off of different definitions. I think the key word (or me) in all of the dictionary defintions is "incorpreal" (lack of material form or substance.).

That brings any/all emotional feelings into the realm of the "spiritual" including happiness, sadness, etc..

I most certinaly would define myself as "spiritual" under those terms but I don't have much use for things like channeling souls of the dead or such which is, I think, closer to what you see the word covering.

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Doh, you guys was busy while I was typing.. Wink

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fishin'

Please duplicate feelings like "happy" or "sad" without a body being the source of such feelings.

I do not accept the simple proclamation that all human emotions are spiritual. Human emotions are the product of human bodies.

The dissasociation of mind and body that some humans like to make is primitive and mythological.

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How would Craven define collective consciousness, and explain it?

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Collective conciousness is the product of shared information and opinions between individual individual conciousness which is the product of a mind which is the product of a body.

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When did it become a requirement for disassociation from the body become a requirement for something to be spiritual?

There is no mention of bodily diassociation in any of the definitions listed in the preceding page...

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All firing synapses and nothing unexplainable then?

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sacred adj. -
4. Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person: sacred to the memory of her sister; a private office sacred to the President.
5. Worthy of respect; venerable.

Nothing to do with God or material mythology, just the idea of value, usefulness, and respect for that.

Also,

A) Electrical energy is a physical force.
Anger is an emotional force.
$1000 is a financial force.
Reputation is a social force.
Television is a marketting force.
Appreciation or the will to live is a spiritual force.

All seven things can be used to accomplish work, and in fact, to enrich our lives -- animation.
There is no single wave in the ocean, but waves do exist.
The spirit or nature of things around us is a complex and qualitative thing.
Kind of like "art" -- a generic term for multiple aspects of many things.

B) Anger seems noncorporeal in that I cannot prove that I'm angry, or locate it physically, but the combination of qualities is unmistakable. Can you locate a corporeal thing that is actually precisely "7"? Can you locate something that is "beautiful"? Where did the "beauty" start and end? Interesting...

Still, I wouldn't call an emotion like anger spiritual. What we consciously do with anger is where spirit comes in.

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The man who folds his clothes before getting nasty with his woman is completely missing the point.

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fishin' wrote:

When did it become a requirement for disassociation from the body become a requirement for something to be spiritual?

There is no mention of bodily diassociation in any of the definitions listed in the preceding page...

It's not a requirement. It's an illustration that human emotions are the product of the human body. The disassociation of mind and body is inferred by the reification of conciousness as spiritual in nature.

It's like calling a fart a spirit. We emit the thoughts and we produce the feelings. They are no more spiritual than our other emissions.

To reify the spiritual using conciousness as the justification for the claim is simply an antiquated way of observing the function of our mind.

CodeBorg wrote:

sacred adj. -
4. Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person: sacred to the memory of her sister; a private office sacred to the President.
5. Worthy of respect; venerable.

Nothing to do with God or material mythology, just the idea of value, usefulness, and respect for that.

So? I did not consider your post to be the definition of spiritual because of that word, I was just pointing out the most absurd part of your post.

Veneration.

Quote:

Also,

A) Electrical energy is a physical force.
Anger is an emotional force.
$1000 is a financial force.
Reputation is a social force.
Television is a marketting force.
Appreciation or the will to live is a spiritual force.

Ok, I accept your arbitrary decision that "will to live" is "spiritual" as long as you accept my arbitrary declaration that both you and I are wrong on this. Rolling Eyes

Prove it. Give evidence. I already know you think so, people think all kinds of nonsense.

Quote:

All seven things can be used to accomplish work, and in fact, to enrich our lives -- animation.
There is no single wave in the ocean, but waves do exist.
The spirit or nature of things around us is a complex and qualitative thing.
Kind of like "art" -- a generic term for multiple aspects of many things.

Sounding like a hippy does not make the spiritual world true. If you name your dog "spiritual" it does not make the spiritual world real.

Quote:

B) Anger seems noncorporeal in that I cannot prove that I'm angry, or locate it physically, but the combination of qualities is unmistakable. Can you locate a corporeal thing that is actually precisely "7"? Can you locate something that is "beautiful"? Where did the "beauty" start and end? Interesting...

You start speaking in gibberish when you have no point and I usually find it amusing but this time it's just downright nonsensical.

You confuse intangible with spiritual.

Quote:

Still, I wouldn't call an emotion like anger spiritual. What we consciously do with anger is where spirit comes in.

Other than the use of ad nauseum will you back it up?

Where do these "spirits" come in again?

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What people have claimed to be spiritual in the past:

Sun
Moon
Wind
Stars
water
earth
weather
lightning
fire
smoke
movement....

You can try to define spiritual as whatever you think helps make your claim to be spiritual make more sense but it still ignores the vast documented hstory of the notion of a spiritual world.

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SPIRITUAL, BUT NOT RELIGIOUS

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