This has been the most interesting piece on space travel this week: private companies, I know Brandon will like that, will be doing the lug work for the space station.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/02/tech/main6167640.shtml
Joe(Taxi! Space Taxi!)Nation
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:"The most recent data show 45 percent of the public agreeing that the benefits of space exploration outweigh the costs..."
Absolute proof that your statement was wrong that no one cares about space but a few geeks, since 45% is a lot more than almost no one. ..."
wow
does that mean that 45% would vote to fund a significant space exploration program if given the chance?
Does that mean that 45% think that space make the priority list of where we spend our limited funds?
Does that mean that 45% would invest into the program the extremely limited time it takes to shoot off an email to their rep asking for space to be funded?
Does that mean that 45% think it is worth the risk to life to send men into space?
No and no and no and no ......
No, it means that the statement that only a few geeks care about space is false, since 45% is more than a few geeks. Even if you cut it down to a more hard core 10%, it's still much more than a few geeks.
hawkeye10 wrote:Nasa has been put on a near starvation funding program and been given missions of limited imagination and daring for 40 years because so few people CARE enough to demand more.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The NASA budget has been growing almost steadily since 1997.
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
While NASA may not be the ultimate rat hole for our money, it is quite close. Manned space projects are hugely expensive and wasteful -- the science can be done with cheap unmanned rockets....
Now, please tell me how we're going to settle other worlds with cheap unmanned rockets.
@Joe Nation,
If the private sector could take over reliably and soon, it would be great, but I'm not sure they can.
We have a ton more research to do in near space before this species goes heading out for Mars with pickaxes and banjos.
Most of that research has to do with keeping human alive in deep space (or on other planets) and not just air-we-breath sort of thing. Our blood cells do odd stuff, change shape from little flat bulgy things to nice, round globular things (we are still trying to find out how much that affects oxygen transfer), muscles degrade almost from the instant of entry into weightlessness and the electric mush which is our brain begins to fire odd bursts around our synapses.
We need to figure out just how fast such things, and many others, will age us during deep space travel. So far, we don't have even one of the thousands of chambers seen in the opening moments of Avatar.
Then there is the little problem of radiation...
Joe(send the robots)Nation
The idea of colonizing other planets is ludicrous. You'll never get the funds for that, unless and until the social and political is altered out of all recognition to the contemporary world.
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The idea of colonizing other planets is ludicrous. You'll never get the funds for that, unless and until the social and political is altered out of all recognition to the contemporary world.
Yes, it's very difficult to get funding for projects which involve multiple steps to gratification. This is the same sort of reason why Columbus had to work so hard to get funding and why his plans were turned down so many times as impractical.
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
We have a ton more research to do in near space before this species goes heading out for Mars with pickaxes and banjos.
Most of that research has to do with keeping human alive in deep space (or on other planets) and not just air-we-breath sort of thing. Our blood cells do odd stuff, change shape from little flat bulgy things to nice, round globular things (we are still trying to find out how much that affects oxygen transfer), muscles degrade almost from the instant of entry into weightlessness and the electric mush which is our brain begins to fire odd bursts around our synapses.
We need to figure out just how fast such things, and many others, will age us during deep space travel. So far, we don't have even one of the thousands of chambers seen in the opening moments of Avatar.
Then there is the little problem of radiation...
Joe(send the robots)Nation
If gravity turns out to be a big deal, it can be created by spinning a big wheel.
It is so stupid to think we are going to fly to another planet and then make a planet an uninhabitable planet habitable.
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
It is so stupid to think we are going to fly to another planet and then make a planet an uninhabitable planet habitable.
Then it's a good thing that nobody thinks that. The other possible destinations in
this solar system require us to create Earth-like habitats. The habitable worlds will only be found in other solar systems.
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
It is so stupid to think we are going to fly to another planet and then make a planet an uninhabitable planet habitable.
Why would that be stupid? It's exactly the long-term plan of humanity and the only one which will guarantee our long-term survival.
Just because you can't envision it, doesn't mean that others cannot.
Cycloptichorn
@Cycloptichorn,
You dont understand Cyclo. If we spend all that money on space we cant spend it on really important stuff like guns, bullets, tanks, and aircraft carriers.
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:Why would that be stupid? It's exactly the long-term plan of humanity and the only one which will guarantee our long-term survival
since we seem to be a species intent on poisoning our planet with pollution and radiation moving to new digs is not going to help. Maybe if we ended this fantasy of moving we would get serious about protecting the carrying capacity of Earth. Concern for the long term prospect of humans argues against Nasa adventures in outer space.
The Chinese figured out we were borrowing money from them to build a moon rocket and skip out to another galaxy.
That's why we had to end the program.
I don't think anything about our situation argues against the exploration of space, with the caveat that manned exploration has to have a damned good, unique reason to justify the expense. Otherwise, the mechanized exploration of the cosmos is not only warranted, it is to be desired if for no other reason than for expanding the horizons of our knowledge. I would be at pains to point out that i think it won't get funded because of short-sighted attitudes, for realities which cannot be ignored (such as our current economic plight), and because of simple human nature (i.e., the "what's in it for me" attitude). I'm not opposed to the exploration of the cosmos, and in fact i think it's a good idea--i just don't think it's going to happen unless our socio-political landscape alters drastically, and change like that takes a long, long time.
I think references to the notion that the Chinese (or the Russians, or the Europeans, or the Japanese or anyone else) will do it before we do is jingoistic stupidity. Who gives a rat's ass who does it first, as long as it gets done? It cannot be denied that the United States and Russia have more experience of manned flight than any other nations, so they're going to need our expertise no matter who signs the checks.
Arguments from population aren't very bright. To make a significant dent in our current population we'd need to ship off a billion or more people. We're not prepared to send ten people out there safely with a prospect of finding a new home, never mind a billion. The most cogent argument i can see for sending manned missions out into the cosmos would be "don't put all your eggs in one basket" attitude. The human race will have a better prospect for surviving over the aeons if weren't not all clinging to this particular rock. We need to solve the problems of population and feeding the population here on this planet before we attempt to tackle colonization.
In the mean time, mechanized exploration will do very nicely, thank you. We need an international consortium to get cracking on solving the practical problems of creating von neumann machines.
The one thing that robot probes can't do is colonize other worlds with people. This is basically a multiple steps to gratification task. We have to work for years to create the first small colony on the moon, and spend money to keep it going. It is only a stepping stone to the first small colony on Mars, which is a stepping stone to a large city in Mars. And all of it is a stepping stone to the colonization of other solar systems, which will be our first prospect of finding habitable worlds, and which we don't yet begin to have the technology for. What makes it worth it is to keep the end goal in mind of human colonies on multiple inhabitable worlds in other solar systems. When you look only at the short term steps it might not seem worth it. You have to be able to look way down the road and see what we're building for. I agree with Setanta's opinion that it is very, very hard to get people to do that sort of long term thinking. I also agree with Cyclo's opinion that this is the long term destiny of mankind. As you probably understand from my previous posts, I would fund this in a second and just drop some other expense to find the money.
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
The one thing that robot probes can't do is colonize other worlds with people. This is basically a multiple steps to gratification task. We have to work for years to create the first small colony on the moon, and spend money to keep it going. It is only a stepping stone to the first small colony on Mars, which is a stepping stone to a large city in Mars. And all of it is a stepping stone to the colonization of other solar systems, which will be our first prospect of finding habitable worlds, and which we don't yet begin to have the technology for. What makes it worth it is to keep the end goal in mind of human colonies on multiple inhabitable worlds in other solar systems. When you look only at the short term steps it might not seem worth it. You have to be able to look way down the road and see what we're building for. I agree with Setanta's opinion that it is very, very hard to get people to do that sort of long term thinking. I also agree with Cyclo's opinion that this is the long term destiny of mankind. As you probably understand from my previous posts, I would fund this in a second and just drop some other expense to find the money.
This is absolutely right. As a species, we are currently in great danger. I know people don't think about things that way, but it's true. We have geological evidence of several so-called 'extinction event' size objects impacting our planet and as things stand we could ALL be wiped out. And that's if nuclear war or pollution or viral infection doesn't do the job first.
If we spread to other sustainable locales, we increase the chances of survival of our species a thousand-fold. From a species view this is of the utmost importance. Our little struggles and squabbles on a day-to-day basis are petty and ******* stupid in the long run. Once we have entered the space age, humanity owes it to ourselves and our descendants to give our ALL into securing our place amongst the stars at the fastest possible rate.
Cycloptichorn
@Cycloptichorn,
Okay. Now I think I've gotten old. I've been reading Brandon and Cyclo's take on colonizing other worlds and for the first time in my life I have been thinking "What? Are you nuts?"
What do you think are the chances of getting the vast majority of humanity behind such a project?
"Good news, South America, Africa and SouthEast Asia, we have decided that in order to save our species, humanity must colonoize Mars and beyond."
"Yeah, well. Any chance of us lot of going with the lot of you?"
"What do you mean? You're part of humanity."
"Just going by how things have been for, oh let's say, the last thousand years or so."
"Yeah, yeah,yeah, but now, because humanity has entered the space era, we are all going to work together for this greater goal, see?"
"Right. um. See, we're going to have to take a pass on your project, your uh, greater goal, while we try to find enough clean water to cook what rice and beans we've got left. It would swell if you could help us with that and find the time to get all the parties to stop shooting our children in the streets."
"If we do, will you help humanity go to Mars?"
"Oh, yes, honey, we sure will. We'll start the very next morning."
Joe(We need to be humans before we become Earthlings.)Nation
@Joe Nation,
Wasn't it also like that during the first age of exploration, when England, France, Spain, etc. crossed the oceans? There is simply no excuse for mankind to remain forever cooped up here when the whole world awaits. The whole human race cannot reduce itself to the level of its least fortunate members.
