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The Biblical Flood and its Nature

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2008 09:44 am
@farmerman,
http://www.destination360.com/europe/germany/images/s/neuschwanstein.jpg

What about this one? How do natural processes do that??
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2008 10:00 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Nonetheless there are unmistakable signs of prior intelligent life in other places in the system. Mars is the most obvious case, but then there is also Saturn's little moon Iapetus with its great circle wall:

You're on a real roll today. Very entertaining Smile
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2008 10:04 am
@djjd62,
That was truly high-larious, Boss . . .
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2008 02:07 pm
@gungasnake,
The processes that made the stone for King Ludwigs castle are those that make any similar sandstone, IMHO. King Ludwig had several good contractors and, being a good GErman, Im sure he saved all the reciepts.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2008 02:19 pm
@farmerman,
You're claiming that this is a natural formation:

http://members.toast.net/rjspina/images/tourdrainage.jpg

I claim that nature could as easily construct one of Ludwig's castles.

I'll let you in on a big secret here: the world isn't going to go on forever ignoring major discoveries because the obvious implications of those discoveries are not compatible with Chuck Darwin's little pseudo-religion.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2008 02:37 pm
gunga wrote:
http://members.toast.net/rjspina/images/tourdrainage.jpg
I claim that nature could as easily construct one of Ludwig's castles.

Where are the windows? Damn it, didn't they believe in windows back then!?
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Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 03:11 pm
According to legend the Basques survived the flood by climbing mountains. The rest of the world being weaklings drowned. The Basques are not a race of people who make friends easily.
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 08:34 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
How did the blacks and Chinese survive the flood? I see no scriptural reference to them anywhere!
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 09:26 pm
I wonder what idiot tagged this pathetic piece of shite thread "history."
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 12:14 am
@NickFun,
Quote:
How did the blacks and Chinese survive the flood? I see no scriptural reference to them anywhere!


How does the saying go? Careful what you ask for...

In the case of China, as per their own literature, handfulls of people and animals survived on high places and on anything which could float for the better part of a year. To my knowledge neither the authors of the books of the bible nor any other Western scholars had any knowledge of China in biblical times.

The situation with blacks is another one of those cases I mentioned in which the Bible is laconic but midrashim can fill in details. Remember I noted that the flood itself was preceeded by seven days of intense light and radiation.

Ovid notes (Metamorphoses) that:

Quote:
From hence the surface of the ground, with mud
And slime besmear'd (the faeces of the flood),
Receiv'd the rays of Heav'n: and sucking in
The seeds of heat, new creatures did begin:
Some were of sev'ral sorts produc'd before,
But of new monsters, Earth created more.


One translation at least. What he's saying is that creatures seen after the flood included old and familiar types as well as new ones although you have to assume that no outright probabilistic miracles (macroevolution) were involved. Microevolution (subspecies evolution) could easily arise from the kind of radiation bath I mention here.

The authors of biblical books and midrashim of course did not comprehend the notion of microevolution brought on via radiation, but they DID understand the idea of CURSES...


The King James (laconic) version:
Quote:
GEN 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

GEN 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.


Louis Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews" ( http://philologos.org/__eb-lotj/vol1/four.htm#8 i.e. the verbose version):

Quote:

In his drunken condition Noah betook himself to the tent of his wife. His son Ham saw him there, and he told his brothers what he had noticed, and said: "The first man had but two sons, and one slew the other; this man Noah has three sons, yet he desires to beget a fourth besides." Nor did Ham rest satisfied with these disrespectful words against his father. He added to this sin of irreverence the still greater outrage of attempting to perform an operation upon his father designed to prevent procreation.

When Noah awoke from his wine and became sober, he pronounced a curse upon Ham in the person of his youngest son Canaan. To Ham himself he could do no harm, for God had conferred a blessing upon Noah and his three sons as they departed from the ark. Therefore he put the curse upon the last-born son of the son that had prevented him from begetting a younger son than the three he had." The descendants of Ham through Canaan therefore have red eyes, because Ham looked upon the nakedness of his father; they have misshapen lips, because Ham spoke with his lips to his brothers about the unseemly condition of his father; they have twisted curly hair, because Ham turned and twisted his head round to see the nakedness of his father; and they go about naked, because Ham did not cover the nakedness of his father. Thus he was requited, for it is the way of God to mete out punishment measure for measure.

Canaan had to suffer vicariously for his father's sin. Yet some of the punishment was inflicted upon him on his own account, for it had been Canaan who had drawn the attention of Ham to Noah's revolting condition. Ham, it appears, was but the worthy father of such a son.[61] The last will and testament of Canaan addressed to his children read as follows: "Speak not the truth; hold not yourselves aloof from theft; lead a dissolute life; hate your master with an exceeding great hate; and love one another."[62]


The flood thus was basically day one of black history. It's probably a reasonable guess that white people as they appear now are not a whole lot older than that. A few hundred or a couple of thousand years.


farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 06:02 am
@gungasnake,
nic ash which can esily be dated (and have). Yet theres NO EVIDENCE or any worldwide flood in any geologic horizon anywhere. Wanna handle that gunga?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 06:20 am
@gungasnake,
This last post of Gunga's is the purest pseudobabble line of bullshit i believe i've ever seen anybody with a claim to some intelligence offer with a "straight face."

There is absolutely no archaeological evidence for the bullshit Gunga is attempting to peddle here. The best archaeological evidence is that hominids arose first in Africa, and spread from there. "White" people are the anomaly, not "black" people.

This is really low grade crap, even by Gunga's already low, low standards.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 06:28 am
@farmerman,
HMMM for some reason I must have clipped the front part of my post. My comment was that all African hominid fossils intersect a datable layer of volcanic ash so that they can be dated and have been dated (EVERY ONE). WE can see that the earth that contained hominids was at least 9 million years old so that doesnt look good for gungas "100000" years old earth.


Anyway, we are giving gunga the opportunity to provide his evidence arent we? . As I recall, gunga was invited several times to provide these factual evidence, without response.

He will post his beliefs but hes really slim on any scientific support other than stuff that he gets from the all night UFO radio programs
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 07:33 am
Here's a review of Gunga's sources: Ovid (Publius Ovidius Naso) was a Roman poet in the Augustan age who made himself sufficiently obnoxious to Roman society that he was exiled to the coast of the Black Sea, to Tomis, which today is Constanta in Roumania. Given the nature of his offense, it is highly likely that Augustus himself was aware of the action taken against him, and if he did not specifically approve of the exile, he certainly did not disapprove or interfere. There is reason to believe that he may have had guilty knowledge of a plot, or an alleged plot, on the life of Augustus. The Metamorphoses was completed in the same year that he was exiled. The passage, a part of which Gunga posts, is not a reference to a world-wide flood, but a part of his poetic version of the Greco-Roman cosmogony (cosmic origins myth).

Gunga then proceeds to the biblical flood story, one of the most repetitive, confused and self-contradictory passages in biblical literature. To this he adds "Legends of the Jews." No one with an ounce of sense can consider anything which he offers here to have the least scientific, historical or even literary plausibility.

*****************************************************

There are two standards by which separate species can be identified. Those are sexual isolation and the inability to interbreed and produce sexually fertile offspring. By the latter standard, all humans are the same species. By the former standard, sexual isolation, racists attempt to make a claim that there are separate "races" of human beings. However, recent genetic investigations begin to show that human "races" cannot be defined even by sexual isolation. There is a tribe in Africa which has long claimed to be descended from the Jews--the Lemba. A 1996 study of the Lemba suggested that more than 50% of the "Y" chromosomes of Lemba men are of Semitic origin. (See the American Journal of Human Genetics, Vol. 5, number 59, November, 199--You can read an abstract by clicking here.) There is also an hypothesis, known as the Solutrean hypothesis, which holds that people living in Europe more than 15,000 years ago migrated to North America during the last glacial maximum. The hypothesis is largely based on what are known in North America as Clovis flint knapping techniques (referring to Clovis, New Mexico, where this type of flint tool was first identified), which have only been seen in one other context, which is the Solutrean culture of western Europe. That this may possibly be true is tentatively supported by mitochondrial DNA studies, which show that 3% of all Amerindians in North and South America have an ancient European mitochonrial DNA marker (the "haplogroup X" marker) which cannot have resulted from later intermarriage or interbreeding--and it is alleged by an ethnologist in Canada that the prevalence of this marker rises to 25% among Algonquian people in eastern Canada. This page at the University of California at Los Angeles has a section which discusses the archaeological evidence for ancient European migrations to North America, but does not canvas the allegation of DNA evidence. There is an article on the first Americans in the September, 2000 issue of the Scientific American, but it requires a subscription to the digital service to read it, so i cannot link it here.

Several years ago, mummies were found in China, dating back 4000 years, which some scientists allege (based on textile and artifact evidence, as well as the appearance of the mummies, preserved by burial in a salt flat) were of European origin. This conflicts with the official Chinese line on human cultural origins, and researchers are now denied access to the mummies. Under pressure from western scientific organization, the Chinese allowed a National Geographic team to examine DNA from the mummies in 2007. The National Geographic team, lead by Spencer Wells (PhD, Harvard University, 1994), found genetic markers indicating origins among Europeans, the people of Mesopotamia and of the Indian subcontinent. If it is true that these remains are those of people descended from Europeans, Indians of the subcontinent (many whom are "Aryan" in origin) and people of the middle east, it means that there were migrations along what is known as the Silk Road thousands of years ago. The majority of the mummies found are "mongoloid" in origin, but eight of them show the other Eurasian markers. The textile evidence is particularly significant, matching samples found in Austrian salt mines dating back more than 3000 years--the salt mines of Austria being another site which preserves archaeological remains very well.

Spencer Wells is also the lead member of the Genographic Project, which hopes to map prehistoric human migration by collecting genetic marker information from people worldwide. The project has come under fire from "indigenous peoples" groups who object to the idea that it may be demonstrated that their ancestors were not as isolated and "ethnically pure" as has been traditionally thought. Their objection is politically based, given that the implications of the data to be collected are seen by some members of indigenous peoples groups as a potential threat to the special status which indigenous peoples are granted by some governments.

The term race was only specifically applied to humans and only humans within the last century. Darwin uses the term race to refer to varieties in plants and animals, and this was a common, non-specific usage of the word in the 19th century. There is no scientitic evidence that there are different races, and there is increasingly good evidence that sexual isolation has not existed among the great majority of human populations for thousands of years. We can never know if it has ever existed in the majority of human populations, but the more recent evidence suggests that even if it did, it has not produced a different species, and any discussion of "race" is political in nature only.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 08:06 am
@Setanta,
http://images.cafepress.com/product/67329479v7_150x150_Front.jpg
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 08:15 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Yet theres NO EVIDENCE or any worldwide flood in any geologic horizon anywhere...



http://www.google.com/search?q=evidence+of+a+global+flood&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 08:37 am
Basic reality is that I post some of this stuff for the benefit of those capable of getting something out of it, which plainly does not include Setanta or Farmerman, and I'm not really into doing other people's homework or research for them. It seems clear enough that no amount of evidence would suffice for some.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 08:39 am
@gungasnake,
Basic reality is that Ovid's poetry and the King James bible are not evidence. Produce some evidence, and we'll have something to discuss.

Clown.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 09:26 am
@gungasnake,

Here's a quote from one of the sources in the link you provided above:
Quote:
Modern geology, and its sub-disciplines of earth science, geochemistry, geophysics, glaciology, paleoclimatology, paleontology and other scientific disciplines utilize the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 10:34 am
Then again for those who don't like AIG style compendiums of (global) flood evidence, there's always neo-catastrophist variant...

http://saturniancosmology.org/files/flood/mfloods.txt

Then again some would cite the existence of continental shelves (pre-flood ocean boundaries) as evidence of a global flood, the waters of which are still with us.





0 Replies
 
 

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