Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Interesting reading. After reading the last several pages, I am wont to wonder what the concensus could be if the word marriage was not used for the union of a gay couple. Would there be objection to said union if another word, other than marriage, was used to describe the bond?


we already know, if gays were happy with civil union the overwhelming majority would have no objections. Very few object to letting gays do what they want to do, what is abjected to is their insistence that we all agree that what they do is the same thing as what we do.


How do we already know that? What is their motivation for insisting on calling it marriage?

I don't see this as a diminishing of rights.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:00 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
There has never been a time when there was one unified view on what a traditional marriage means. It's always been in flux depending on the time.


I've never heard of it covering same sex unions in a formal way.


Formalized same sex unions existed in ancient Greece and in Japan.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:10 pm
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

I have no objection whatsoever to the union or what they choose to call it. I object to changing the legally recognized definition of traditional marriage.


Thanks for making that clear. In that case. I agree with you.


What the 'peanut gallery' seems to refuse to acknowledge is that changing the laws governing marriage over the decades or centuries or millenia has not changed the essential definition of the traditional marriage. US laws have removed all the inequities that were once built into the civil institution, and the institution of marriage as it is currently recognized at least in the USA is 100% non discriminatory as everybody, straight, gay, male, and female regardless of education, sociopolitical status, religion or lack thereof, race, ethnicity, country of origin, or whatever can marry under the existing law and everybody, without prejudice, is subject to the same law in whatever state he/she resides. Okay same sex gay couples can't marry and neither can same sex heterosexual people who could benefit in many ways from a 'marriage' contract.

That's why I favor a new institution where all those, gay or straight, who cannot or choose not to marry under the existing law can form themselves into legally recognized family groups where all the needed rights of hospital visitation, shared insurance, inheritance, etc. would apply. As soon as our society gets off the soapbox to change the definition of traditional marriage, I think we can accomplish that in reasonably short order.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
The meaning of marriage has changed a great deal over time, and during all of the changes marriage has remained an useful concept....remained in use. This proposed change in meaning is several orders of magnitude more extreme than any other has been, so the fact that change has worked in the past does not support this proposed change.


I think that defining the "orders of magnitude" that changing the definition of marriage to include same sex unions would be more extreme is highly subjective.

I think that when the definition changed to allow interracial couples to get married, people probably thought that that was more extreme than giving women civil rights. And I'm sure that when divorce was legalized, or when the definition, over time, changed from ownership of a woman by a man to a union between two partners with equal rights, people also thought that the concept was quite extreme and radical.

I agree that the fact that all those changes of the traditional definition of marriage have largely worked very well in the past doesn't mean that other changes will work as well. I just don't see why including the right of a gay couple to get married into the definition of marriage wouldn't work.


hawkeye10 wrote:
In just two generations we have altered marriage a great deal, allowed mix race, making it easy to end at will, and largely removing the religous aspect of it.....my argument is that too much change too fast has already eroded marriage, weakened the family, that not only should we not add new change without a very good reason but we should remove some of the change already imposed by making divorce more difficult.


That's a radical concept, but I have to admit that you're at least being consequent: if divorces have been detrimental to the institution of marriage and your desire is to restore the traditional definition of marriage and curb the number of divorces, you'd have to make divorce more difficult or impossible.

I don't agree with that, but there you go...
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:13 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
How do we already know that? What is their motivation for insisting on calling it marriage
we know from asking people, around 80% are fine with a legal union with not all but almost all of the legal rights of marriage. The courts recently have said no (state supreme courts), that the rights of equality mean that gay unions have the right to use the term "married" and that the rules for gay unions must be identical to heterosexual unions. In fact, the courts say that there can be no separate law for gays, that one law on marriage must be inclusive to all.

The motivation for gays is their determination to have everyone agree that they are just as good as heterosexuals, that the quality and acceptability of gay love and gay union is just as valid and as good as heterosexual versions. Gays are trying to use the courts to change social attitudes towards them, to compel the heterosexual majority to accept the homosexual minority on their terms, as they demand to be viewed. This is not right, because free will allows everyone their own opinion. If you look at the prop 8 thread you will see that all who dare to disagree are called names and ridiculed, and while it is a small sample of a2k'ers is is representative of the gay rights pressure groups' common tactic.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I have no objection whatsoever to the union or what they choose to call it. I object to changing the legally recognized definition of traditional marriage.


So, for all practical purposes, you're not opposed to gay marriage.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:17 pm
To Aiden:

I believe you when you say that the two guys did a great job of raising their little family. I know of several other cases where this is also the case. I have no problem with responsible and capable gay people/couples adopting children when it makes perfect sense--see my previous anecdotal account--and/or when there is no better option for the child.

I, like you, will always believe that all children benefit from having loving, supportive, and positive role models of parents of both sexes in the home, however, and think that should always be the first choice for kids when feasible.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:20 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I have no objection whatsoever to the union or what they choose to call it. I object to changing the legally recognized definition of traditional marriage.


So, for all practical purposes, you're not opposed to gay marriage.


I'm not opposed to permanent loving gay unions, but I think for legal purposes it should be called something other than marriage. I don't care what THEY choose to call it, however.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:20 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
we know from asking people, around 80% are fine with a legal union with not all but almost all of the legal rights of marriage.


What about a legall union which would afford them all the rights of marriage? Except, of course, calling it a "marriage"?
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:21 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yes, I agree simply because I know that if I were a birthmother, placing my child for adoption, because of my own experience, in my own life (having had a wonderful mother and father whose roles neither of the other could have replicated) - I would choose for my child if possible to have a mother and father.

But having said that - we need more heterosexual couples who are willing to adopt minority (which is what these two little girls were), special needs and sibling groups to come forward.

Until they do - these children won't always have that ideal option of having a mother and father. That's just the reality.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I'm not opposed to permanent loving gay unions, but I think for legal purposes it should be called something other than marriage. I don't care what THEY choose to call it, however.


Well, if you're saying that same sex couples should have all the rights that a married couple has, except for the privilege of calling their union a "marriage", then I we don't really have any disagreement.

On the other hand, I cannot, for the life of me, fathom why you attach so much importance to a term that would only matter within a legal context anyway - after all, if you'd institute civil unions with equal rights for homosexual couples, I'm fairly sure they'd still say that they were getting "married" rather than "civil unionized" or something...
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:25 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

Yes, I agree simply because I know that if I were a birthmother, placing my child for adoption, because of my own experience, in my own life (having had a wonderful mother and father whose roles neither of the other could have replicated) - I would choose for my child if possible to have a mother and father.

But having said that - we need more heterosexual couples who are willing to adopt minority (which is what these two little girls were), special needs and sibling groups to come forward.

Until they do - these children won't always have that ideal option of having a mother and father. That's just the reality.


Having worked in anti-poverty programs and with the foster parent program as well as with domestic violence, how well I know. That is why I am unopposed to qualified gay or single parents adopting children and giving them the best home possible when the ideal is unavailable.

But we need the pendulum of our cultural society to swing back to valuing traditional marriage and the nuclear family again so that more young people will see that as desirable and important. Then we will have more solidly grounded heterosexual couples to adopt children and that will be a good thing for our country, our communities, and ourselves whether we are gay or straight.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:33 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I'm not opposed to permanent loving gay unions, but I think for legal purposes it should be called something other than marriage. I don't care what THEY choose to call it, however.


Well, if you're saying that same sex couples should have all the rights that a married couple has, except for the privilege of calling their union a "marriage", then I we don't really have any disagreement.

On the other hand, I cannot, for the life of me, fathom why you attach so much importance to a term that would only matter within a legal context anyway - after all, if you'd institute civil unions with equal rights for homosexual couples, I'm fairly sure they'd still say that they were getting "married" rather than "civil unionized" or something...


If you don't fathom it by now, OE, there is nothing else I could possibly say to help you understand. I have long accepted that people like you don't care if the definition of marriage is changed. I do. Let's just agree to disagree, okay?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:37 pm
@old europe,
Quote:
What about a legall union which would afford them all the rights of marriage? Except, of course, calling it a "marriage"?


I could never go for that, because kids are better off with both a mother and an father. Gays should be second class petitioners in adoptions, and in a split of a homosexual union a bio mom/dad should get full custody . Other than that I am probably ok full rights as in marriage for gays, if the science shows that homosexual activity is not harmful to the collective. I need more info on the real life consequences of accepting open homosexuality, of the effects of not having the normal suppression of the homosexual impulse in place, before I decide on how far we should go to embrace homosexual unions.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:39 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
If you don't fathom it by now, OE, there is nothing else I could possibly say to help you understand.


That's probably true.


Foxfyre wrote:
I have long accepted that people like you don't care if the definition of marriage is changed. I do.


You care if the definition of marriage is changed from something you know to something new.

You don't care that the definition of marriage has changed in the past. You even insist that the definition of marriage has always been the same, when it clearly has changed even since the first settlers arrived in America.


Of course, it's your business whether or not to resist anything that you're not used to. However, I find it strange if you have to fall back on falsifying history in order to make your case.


Foxfyre wrote:
Let's just agree to disagree, okay?


Fine with me.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 02:03 pm
@old europe,
I don't agree that I have falsified history in any way. You may or may not be able to show anecdotal evidence that somebody somewhere defined traditional marriage other than as a union between a man and a woman, but I'm pretty darn sure that you can't find that as the norm anywhere in history.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 02:19 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Then don't respond to me at all if you're so bored by me defending myself from unkind and untrue assumptions, insinuations, and/or accusations Chai. That works for me.

My definition of marriage is the same definition that spans at least 4000 to 6000 years. I suppose you could consider that an unacceptably small sampling, but in my tiny world, I choose to think that is rather significant.


But.....where are you getting that this has been the "traditional" definition for all that time?

You keep saying the word traditional, but you give nothing as to why you believe this is so....hence my saying in your small perception of this matter, that is what all the world, for all this amount of time as considered to be traditional marriage.That is simply not true. There have been many ideas of what constitutes a "traditional" marriage over the same amount of time you speak of.

I'm not sure how you can not see that.

Please, tell me one or two more times how badly you're being treated. I don't believe everyone heard it the first 50 times you said it.

Or, drop the martyr bit and attempt to answer a direct question.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 02:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
Erm...well, there is a lot of history of polygamy, for instance.

But, as ever, you avoid OE's point, which appears perfectly clear to me.

chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 02:33 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:

Erm...well, there is a lot of history of polygamy, for instance.

But, as ever, you avoid OE's point, which appears perfectly clear to me.




Which is my point as well....although OE is much better spoken.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 02:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
You have said that your definition of marriage is the same definition that spans at least 4000 to 6000 years. That was at least wildly exaggerated.

In fact, the definition of what marriage meant has changed significantly even in the short time since the Thirteen Colonies. Marriage between a black and a white person was a crime. Divorce was considered to be against the public interest, and civil courts therefore usually refused to grant a divorce.
And then, you have the "traditional marriage" of the Mormons, where the term was defined as the union between one man and several women (or girls, for that matter).

Your definition of "traditional marriage" is valid for a couple of decades, nothing more.


Furthermore, your claim that no other kind of union other than the union between a man and a woman has been the norm is equally specious. For example, there is ample evidence for the widespread practice of unions between a man and a boy in ancient Greece, ranging from numerous poems that idolize the love between a boy and a man to depictions of pederasty on vases. Assuming the female role in a homosexual relationship was looked down upon, but at the same time well thought-out social protocols existed which protected youths (which usually took over that part) from the shame associated with being sexually penetrated.

In Japan, rituals existed to formalize the relationship between two men. Tradionally, the love between two men was regarded as the purest form of love. In the tradition of the Samurai, a younger warrior would become the partner and lover of an older and more experienced Samurai.

And just in those two examples, we're not talking about "anecdotal evidence", but about a widespread and well-documented practices that were highly formalized and a norm for not only decades, but centuries.
 

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