Sore heads: No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

No clapping. Uh-huh.

Sounds like the altar boys are the last perk for the Vatican.

some of the musical aspects of the mass really are getting too liberal.

ye110man
ye110man, which parts of the Mass do think have become too liberal? Why?

---BumbleBeeBoogie

All things considered, I can understand the desire for altar boys rather than girls, but I am astonished that the Vatican actually acknowledges the issue.

Women are losing ground in the Church daily. With the upsurge of conservative organization, and their move to control the monetary sources from the West, it isn't surprising that the Vatican is going to start cracking down on what the conservatives see as heresies.
I think the question is, what will happen to the liberals? And why aren't they counterorganizing?

Why do you suppose "God" has this problem with women?

AAAAh thank god I'm a jew but am I jew in love with a catholic boy but thank god he also has a peirced chin and drinks absinthe

No really I cant handle this so called tradtionalism, it is yet another guise for sexism, oh and please God forbid church going is made fun i mean dancing thats for nigth clubs where the unfaithful hang out right???

I went to catholic school and probably spent moer time in chapel then in synagouge and I can tell you know that both Catholism and Hasidic jews tread very thin lines in my eyes. I'm reform frowned heavily upon by the hasidic Jews not emntion a women aah so many things to be prejudiced about and so little time...

Anyway I must get back to my sacreligious behaviour

Hey tagged, man, I've been so in touch with your posts so far...I am also a reform albeit non-practicing Jew, and the wife is Catholic, although her mother's family is Muslim. I was nearly kicked out of religious and Hebrew school on many occasions for my blasphemy. At the same time, supposedly 'real' Jews, i.e. Conservatives and Orthodox, referred to our place of worship <snicker> as 'The Church on the Hill'

yeah I'm none practicing either but i live in hasdsic neighourhood... riding my BMX around the one day this little hasid boy (+-4) asks me why i'm not wearinga skirt it was scary!!

this chatholic boy i'm in love with when i first met him I knew he was catholic but when he found out i was jewish he was like what you're jewish, I mean you dont act jewish? I was like and how do you purpose jews should act?

Anyway he got over it but he was still shokced despite all his liberlsl appreances...
weird I tell you. Anyway it's strange how prejudices are ingrained in us from so young.

In university, I dated a French Catholic (not my wife) who's mom thought that Jews didn't eat meat.

Re: ye110man

i'm actually for altergirls and even ordaining women priests but i don't like this dancing and guitar playing and waving your arms in the air. mass is supposed to be solemn worship not a concert. the central theme of the mass, the eucharist, has been totally lost. i wouldn't at all be opposed to a return to the latin mass.

and yes i do go to clubs but there's a time and place for everything.

I was raised in the old fashioned, aka 1940's, 1950's catholic church and really did love the solemnity and ritual of the latin mass. On the other hand, my personal views moved west, or something like that, and I have had room in my mind for much more expressive ritual. I didn't want it to replace the latin mass, but coexist, as I remember my feelings.

Not to mention altar girls, being an older girl myself.

I don't care about all this any more, and wouldn't go back to the church no matter the changes.
But I am sad for church dignity to subside so badly, whether I participate or not, and for it to subside in defense of silly things. Maybe all I see left is a structure of centuries of previously described ritual and no beef.

Not to mock any one else's belief here, just a nod from me.

ye110man
ye110man, I respect your opinions about the Mass. Do you have empathy for Mel Gibson's new film and the group of which he is a member that advocates a return to the Latin Mass, etc.?

---BumbleBeeBoogie

I am looking forward to Mel Gibson's new film but as I understand it he is not only an advocate of the latin mass but a schismatic.

I found these quotes about post-Vatican II's Liturgical practices by Archbishop Weakland of Milwaukee...

"Unfortunately, most of the new music created for the liturgy has been and continues to be trite in both musical form and text, more fit for the theatre and the pub than for church."

"Has the reform respected the nature of sacramentality as a free gift from God, as a 'given', or have our people drifted into a more horizontal and purely human activity?"

"Has the community or parish at times distorted the rite by seeking to do its 'own thing' - as creative as it may have seemed to the assembled group or the specialists who guided it - and thus lost contact with the living tradition of the universal Church itself?"

"Has the reform at times led to a diminution of respect for and belief in the real presence in the Eucharist?"

religious schismatic
schism, schimatic

Schism refers to a split in the Church, the act by which one or more of the faithful cuts the ties which bind him to the social organization of the Church; the state of dissociation or separation which is the result of that act. A person who performs a schism is a schismatic. Generally speaking, the schismatic does not deny the Faith, just the Church.

One of the most infamous schisms was caused by a dispute over the primacy of the pope over the Universal Church, and resulted in the split between the East and West.

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/schismatic

The Schismatic and Heretical Tendencies of Eastern Christianity Before 1054

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ399.HTM

Catholic Church Attendance Down to 50 Percent in Ireland
Sep 25, 2003
Roman Catholic Church Attendance Down to 50 Percent in Ireland, Survey Finds
By Shawn Pogatchnik - Associated Press Writer

DUBLIN, Ireland (AP) - Only half of Roman Catholics attend weekly Mass in predominantly Catholic Ireland, and 75 percent believe priests should be allowed to marry, according to an opinion poll published Thursday.
The poll for Ireland's state broadcasters RTE found that about 50 percent of people aged 18 or older attend weekly Mass, down 10 percentage points from a similar poll taken in 1998. The margin of error of both polls was 3 percentage points.

Weekly Mass attendance in rural areas was 60 percent, down 17 percentage points from 1998, while in urban areas it was 43 percent, down 5 percentage points.

Until the 1970s, such polls rated weekly Mass attendance nationwide above 90 percent.

Bishop Dermot Clifford said the poll findings were still "very respectable" in comparison with much lower levels of Mass attendance in other predominantly Roman Catholic parts of Western Europe.

Ireland was no longer a society where the entire community was expected to go to church together, Clifford said.

"In the '50s, if you didn't go to Mass, pressure would come from your family, neighbors or the priest," he said.

Of those polled, three-quarters said they did not believe priests should have to remain celibate and two-thirds want the church to admit women as priests.

On other key church teachings, 38 percent do not believe Pope John Paul II is infallible, 13 percent do not believe Mary retained her virginity, 10 percent do not believe bread and wine are transformed during Mass into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, and 5 percent do not believe Jesus was the son of God.

For the poll last Saturday, 1,000 adults were questioned in face-to-face interviews.

"I think there is a greater freedom now amongst people to question beliefs and teaching of the church," said Bishop Willie Walsh, the most liberal and outspoken of the church's leaders in Ireland.

"I think that, of course, one would like that everybody would believe every detail of church teaching. But that would be to live in an unreal world," Walsh told RTE.

Ireland has been hit particularly hard by the sexual abuse scandals in the Roman Catholic Church. One government collapsed over its mishandling of the issue in 1994.

Today, victims' groups, the government and church leaders continue to clash over how to deliver justice and financial compensation to people abused by priests and other church employees.

Thursday's survey indicated that most Roman Catholics placed equal blame on the government and the church for allowing child abuse to go unchecked in Ireland's church-run schools, workhouses and orphanages until the 1980s.

But the survey also highlighted substantial support for maintaining the Catholic church's prominent position in Irish life. About 87 percent said they wanted their children raised as Catholics, and 49 percent said priests played an important role in society - compared with 35 percent for lawyers, 22 percent for politicians and 20 percent for journalists.

This story can be found at: http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAWQ1OG1LD.html

yes, priests should have the option of marriage but not encouraged.

altargirls was a step in the right direction. next, women deacons. ultimately women bishops.

when the mass became more and more protestant, what did the church expect? the church wanted to maintain catholic doctrine while giving the outward appearance of protestantism which may seem more appealing and accessible. but they managed to erode the whole church. for many catholicism's appeal was in its conservatism.

at the old mass, you couldn't just wing it. either your parents or your sunday school had to teach you about the mass. today, what the hell do kids know about the mass? they go and kneel when everyone kneels, stand when everyone stands, and then go eat the bread. i bet 50% of catholics don't even know that the church teaches transsubstantiation, much less believe it.

The Vatican-paedophile central.