Why does crime exist? what do poor people do when they cant eat?

You not only whine, Ogi, you open a new thread for each whine. Your sense of victimization flies high. I don't entirely disagree that you might have been dealt a bad hand - I think do you were so dealt, and need help - but it doesn't matter, as you are always looking at yourself, and demonizing the rest of us. You speak from a lot of rage, or if not rage, a lot of elaborate palaver mixed with real rage.
You seem to be cool with con, and cool with rage. What a recipe for a life.
I don't suppose I can talk you out of all that.

But why a lot of us like you, let me guess, is we see a more interesting person inside that, and would like to see you develop him. But that is up to you.

You not only whine, Ogi, you open a new thread for each whine. Your sense of victimization flies high. I don't entirely disagree that you might have been dealt a bad hand - I think do you were so dealt, and need help - but it doesn't matter, as you are always looking at yourself, and demonizing the rest of us. You speak from a lot of rage, or if not rage, a lot of elaborate palaver mixed with real rage.
You seem to be cool with con, and cool with rage. What a recipe for a life.
I don't suppose I can talk you out of all that.

But why a lot of us like you, let me guess, is we see a more interesting person inside that, and would like to see you develop him. But that is up to you.



(Oh, I bought chicken necks and Morton's frozen spaghetti.)

It's not clear you're not an idiot. Read your own posts.

It's all of those and the smarts to not get overextended. You didn't respond to my idea of roommate(s).

It's about taking things one step at a time and getting a foothold on the ladder. You can't do that when you're over your head in debt or trying to be "successful" (however you define that) as a result of a giant leap.

What do you want to achieve in life?

How are you going to get there?

And, no, you don't have to be ruthless or trample others in the process.

Get a goal.

Make a plan.

Live by it.

Well, the fact of the matter is, our generation didn't live the life of Riley during the depression, war years, and after the war. Jobs and food were scarce, but almost everybody was in the same boat. After WWII, the guys who were lucky enough to make it home alive went to college and started an economic boom never seen in the history of the world. "They" created the strongest and longest economic expansion with only five percent of the world population; we became the super-power of the world both military and economy-wise. Over 95% came from poor families - waking up and going to sleep with empty stomachs. They didn't whine; they did something. That's been the "American Way" for our generation, and even the poorest of the poor had the best opportunity to "make it" with some gumption and motivation to succeed.

We were fortunate to have lived during the Best Years of Our Lives, when educational standards were pretty high compared to all the developing countries.

But something went haywire during the intervening years; our schools and infrastructure started to deteriorate, crime shot up, and the concept of personal responsibility began to disappear from the landscape. Americans wanted everything today on a silver platter, and the children were given all the material goods without the parenting skills of days past. Both parents worked to "keep up with the Joneses," the their children started taking drugs and getting involved with gangs.

With the current financial crisis affecting the world economy, crime will increase all over the world. That's what happens when hope disappears for the masses.

This is a very difficult question to ask. Everyone has different circumstances.

I think there have been some very good answers to your question here. I don't want to seem to be calling anyone out or anything, but Onion, it seems as if you are looking for the answer of "a hand out". If you wont accept the answer of "the only person who can help your situation is yourself" then you are looking for someone to throw down a rope and pull you out of your hole.

Like said before, there are shelters, food banks, the unemployment office. Go to a temp agency. Search from someone needing a room mate.

Sure the military isn't for everyone. Trust me, I know. I have seen my share of guys come and go here in the Army that scream "this aint my thing!" But you know what, 3 years and your minimum contract can be fulfilled.

Know what that does? That gives you a building block. Do you know how many companies will hire someone with less skills just because they were in a branch of service? It's almost like going fishing and the fish jumping in the boat. The service gives you a place to live. They have dining facilities for you to eat at for free. Then you get free medical and dental.

Nothing in life is ever easy, except failing. If failing isn't an option, then expect a sore back, long hours, little recognition, and a repeating cycle till you finally break through.

My father never finished 5th grade. He never got a G.E.D. He got a job as a jantior at a ship yard at the age of 22. In his free time he would go to the welding shop and ask the guys if he could mess around with the welder. He taught himself how to weld. Fast forward 22 years later and he was the Foreman of the whole ship yard and had every welding certification for welding that was available at the time except underwater welding.

There is no golden answer to this question. It is all about what you do with the circumstances presented to you.

Good points JPB. Get your foot in the door of a company with some real growth potential and bust you ass off.

10 years ago I started a job with the company I'm with now as a telemarketer making $7.75/hr. Now I make $75,000 a year with the same company and I'd make even more if I had the smarts in my twenties to finish my college degree.

Aaaah. Ogi won't make it next week with such a company as he'll have a resentful fit of some sort, while fulminating on what drugs he could do and who to screw. Or even if he doesn't he'll just be holding it in, all angry, mr. postal.

I know he's sharper than that, but I don't know that he'll morph in attitude.

He'll change his own view from the polarity of resentment if he wants to. Might take some reading.

ya, CI, it is a problem that these kids look at TV and see how the wealthy live and pass by McMansions not being able to have the slightest clue how they will ever get one. Having little in a sea of excess skews expectations.

What you don't remember is that even those who had little felt lucky for what the did have. what you don't remember is looking back on having nothing is not looking back on being unhappy and without. People had each other, and they had a sense of themselves, and a sense of what was important, and a sense the somehow someday things would work out.

A lot of these kids today know only the superficial, they know only the juvenile idea encased in the bumper sticker "he who dies with the most toys wins". they know nothing about "a man's character is his destiny" or about the inner life at all. How could they, they have never been exposed to literature, and are incapable of knowing of themselves and the relative importance of things because they have always been diverted by titillation and the quest for acquisitions..

Our young lad needs to learn the hard way that panting after stuff is a poor use of energy, and that lusting after stuff he can't have now is self torture. He has to learn for himself who he is and what he wants out of life, nobody can help him with that.

Ok, I'll play along. I was born poorer, and my parents were uneducated cult members.



They didn't allow me to go to school, watch tv, listen to the radio, read outside literature, listen to outside music. I wasn't allowed outside the house except for rare excursions, and wasn't allowed to socialize with outsiders.

It was manual labor and religious teachings all day every day except for Sunday (which was "Family Day" and I got to see my parents).

You may think you were taught nothing, but I'll give you some real ignorance for comparison: when I was out on my own for the first time, I knew of two pop singers: Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley. I didn't know who was who. I'd never heard anyone say "F*** you" in my life (it took many fights and a fractured jaw before I got used to the vulgarity).

This is orders of magnitude more ignorance and I wouldn't let it stop me. You have less reason to let your plight stop you.



I, in turn, what I saw in a freaky cult.



Ok, so I get kicked out at 13 and dropped off in another country.



What little school I did attend (part of 7th grade) after being kicked out I did well in too, my teachers praised me too. And it's worth as precious little in the big picture as yours too.

Wasn't able to stay in school either, was sent out of the states back to my parents for a bit, and only managed to get back to school 2 years later (9th grade). I had to work to pay for my rent and food as a minor, and didn't quite make it (jobs are even harder to get as a minor, so are apartments).

I ended up homeless and had to drop out of school. But I got my GED early while I was homeless.



Look, I know what it's like to need to eat and need housing, so you aren't going to fool me. You may not have it great, but don't pretend you are starving yet. Life has enough drama in store for you without you creating your own.



That's called life.



No you don't. I did what I could without one. I used payphones (before the days of cheap cellphones), I camped out in the school counselor's office because they let me make calls and often gave me food.

Now, with grandcentral.com you have no excuse whatsoever on this count. You can get a free number that rings any phone you have or even just to take messages if you have no phone.

That's all you need to get employed (the ability to list a phone number and get messages on it), having a cellphone to actually just talk to people is a luxury. grandcentral.com gives these numbers to homeless people because the lack of a number to give when job hunting is a legitimate limitation on employment. But now you have no excuse, it's free (if it requires an invite and you can't sign up let me know and I'll get you in).

That's worlds easier than what I had to do, you can just get online anywhere, or call in from any phone, and get your messages. And you can call from a payphone or landline.



No you don't really need this except to fill out forms, and it's still pretty easy to get a mailing address if you need to actually receive mail.

There's even earthclassmail.com now where you can pay to have your mail accessible from the internet.

I'd have loved to have had that back then, I could get online at the library but didn't have communication tools like this back then.



Everybody starts with this limitation. You think others are born with references?



You think only poor people need to learn this? Everyone does. Here's how it went for me. My first attempt was a resounding failure. I thought it was supposed to be catchy and entertaining. Being a young teenager (15 then) this meant, to my way of thinking at the time, that it should be very funny. What I lacked in education and experience I was determined to make up for by sheer wit and the, as I imagined it, ensuing hilarity.

Well, it was hilarious, but not in the way I thought. After the employers stopped laughing they broke it to me. I was doing it wrong. They thought it was funny and yes they wanted to hold on to the resume, but they weren't hiring a comedian, and no I didn't get the job.

Plus, they explained to me, I couldn't work anyway. A minor needs legal documents to work.

So I've got you beat here, I didn't have the needed resume-making skills, and I couldn't even get a job if I wanted one. Child labor laws seemed awful unfair to me then, but I could bask in self-pity or do something about it. You can't eat self pity so I worked illegally. I'd grown up with a lot of kids, and took care of a lot of them, so I wanted to babysit. The stupidest teenaged girls I knew made good money watching TV at other people's houses. But people don't hire males to babysit. I thought that was unfair, I knew more about taking care of kids (had done it since I was a kid myself) than they ever will but that's the way it is. It felt unfair, but you can't eat that feeling so what are you gonna do?

I mowed lawns. It was embarrassing as **** to drag a borrowed lawn mower around town and asking for 10 bucks for some work and sure my peers got a lot of good digs in at the poor kid but it got me through what I needed.



You are spoiled OGIONIK, I dreamed of a minimum wage job back then. A minimum wage job in America puts you in the top 13% of the richest people on earth. Have some perspective, hell I even felt fortunate in comparison to others who had it far worse.

You've been born with a winning lottery ticket just to be in a first world country, and you have it better than the majority of the people on earth.



There are billions of people who would trade places with you. Cherish what you have and make the most of it.



I'll write you a manual at the end of this post then.



Working hard isn't the secret, that's the bare minimum you need. The real secret is in making good decisions with your life. There are a lot of bad decisions that can't be fixed with hard work and you'll need to learn from them.

Better yet, learn from other people who already did so.



Well that's only a testament to your stupidity then, because no matter how poor you are in America you can do better than that. I know this first hand, so don't give me some ignorant rant that you don't know about.

I survived on cents a day. I got end of day pizzas and foodstuffs from restaurants for free. I A loaf of shitty bread can last a week if properly rationed and paired with cheap peanut butter you can survive on the coins you find on the street if you really need to (or from the lawns you mow).

Don't give me the hunger nonsense, I know what it's like and how easy it is to feed yourself once you get there. You talk about buying liquor and drugs and playing poker, that is a world of a difference from poverty and the reason people are calling you names here is because this is ugly self-pity.

I didn't feel bad for myself in much worse conditions than you are in, and every day I knew that there was a thin line keeping me from much worse. Walking the line meant not giving in to such self pity. Not accepting punishing failures. There were days where I struggled to spin a negative into a positive. Where after saying that it couldn't possibly get worse, it would, and I'd force myself to smile with my head up and refuse to be a drag on the others around me. Where I'd convince myself and them that well it really couldn't get worse than this, and if it can well then it will feel all the better when things finally start going our way.

I'm not going to go into the details with the bad spots, the violence, the terror, and the dark times. But I knew a lot of people in the same boat and the ones who stayed there were the ones who would dwell on the self pity. The ones who'd get stuck on the "not fair" part, or the "how unfuckinglucky is that" part. The ones who made it out were the ones who discarded self-pity to think of ways to better themselves.

I knew guys who talked like you did, sometimes they did it with pistols in their mouths and sometimes I'd find out that they didn't make it. They'd romanticize the pain and wallow in it, instead of finding a way out.

I know how alluring it can be but it's your biggest obstacle right now. Feeling sorry for yourself will only serve to make excuses for yourself of why you can't why it's too unfair or too hard.

The bottom line that I'm trying to get through to you here, is that it's not too hard and certainly not too unfair. You've got a cakewalk in front of you in comparison to me and my peers and we had a cakewalk in front of us in comparison to most of the people in the world.

You have not the foggiest notion of what the depths of suffering is, and you need this perspective. Almost 90% of the world is poorer than you. Here, try this for perspective:

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

Put your annual salary in there (or an annual salary at minimum wage, which you'd have no excuse not to be making) and rejoice in that around 90% of the world is poorer than you. And guess what, a lot of them are single young guys with a bright future ahead of them, they are fathers of large families and no matter how hard they work, and no matter how good their decisions they don't have a snowball's chance in hell in comparison to you.

You were born in America, this is a winning lottery ticket and you have no excuses. Sure, you have obstacles, but the more you whine about them the bigger they get.



Ok, here's my manual for you:

1) You are going to get people who knock you for your drugs and alcohol. The truth is that you can do just fine with them, but it's also true that they are additional obstacles.

I did my school of hard knocks with drugs, and I'm not one to tell you that it's crucial to your life to stay off them, but you'd be deluding yourself if you think it's not an additional obstacle.

2) You need to work to survive. This is your first priority. The good news is that this is easy and in America you don't need much in way of brains or effort to do this. So rejoice in that you can be a slacker and still live. That's better than most of the world can do even if they bust their balls.

3) If you want to do better than survive, you need a marketable skill. Being poor is no excuse, I've got less than 3 total years of formal education to my name but I taught myself the things I need to have a career in web strategies.

You can go about getting the skill a number of ways. You can bust your ass and learn it yourself, you can gain a skill through experience (for example you can get a minimum wage job, but as an electrician's apprentice and learn a viable trade in a year or two), or you can study for it.

Studying comes with it's own challenges of cost, time and effort. Don't whine about how hard it is for you, sure you aren't a trust fund kid and you've got your work cut out for you but it's really not that bad. When I was trying I wasn't eligible for any aid (my parents never filed taxes so I couldn't prove poverty, and I hadn't lived in any state long enough to qualify for any other aid) but I still never felt like it was outside my reach.

Even with no options like that, there was the military. Now I hear you about the military not being for you, and it sure wasn't the thing for me, but beggars can't be choosers. I made the decision to go from a comfortable (in terms of life, not money) living in Brazil where I'd landed on my feet teaching English to join the military, and there's nothing I can think of that I'd like less than being in the military.

Someone offered me a job the day I was to sign my contract just to keep me out of the military, and I ended up doing better through experience and self-study than I would have through military and college but I was ready to do it if I needed to. Hell I got right up to the door, did all the tests, the physical, had the contract details verbally agreed to and fully expected to be in the Army. I was on the bus to sign the paperwork when the offer of an interview came, and I was hired within the interview to get out. I was lucky, but my point is that others in the exact same boat as I took the military route and are doing fine for it, and it is an option for you.

Lastly, you can work your way through it with low paying jobs, grants and aid, and a lot of effort.

So to summarize:

1) Teach yourself
2) Learn on the job (e.g. min-wage tech support while learning more and more and advancing, there are hundreds of ways here)
3) Join the military
4) Get financial aid, work your ass off for the next 5 years and get through it

And yes, you can do this and you can do it quite easily. Sure, it's not easy in comparison to the top 0.5% of the world that you are comparing yourself to, but it's a hell of a lot easier to the 88% or so of the world who have it worse off than you.

So just do it. Whining to others just irritates them, but is otherwise not a problem except that you are whining to yourself. You are coddling your poor sensitive self instead of developing the testicular fortitude and willpower to succeed.

It's not just "work harder" it's about having the right outlook and making the right decisions while working hard. Working hard is the bare minimum. You just need to make the right choices as much as you can and let the chips fall where they may.

You know you need to do one of the steps I outlined above, and how you do it is your decision, but I urge you not waste time feeling sorry for yourself, and excusing yourself for being where you are and spend the time thinking about how to climb the ladder. The wrong outlook on it can have a big impact on your success, and right now you are your worst enemy.

Here are three tips I will give you:

1) Live below your means. This doesn't mean save money. It means to always live below your means. I didn't learn this as early as I would have liked. I'd save for a car so I could stop riding the bus and get a job out of downtown and think I was a saving fool. Well I had the fool part right, and I wasn't living below my means.

Something that makes it very hard to do is borrowing or lending, as Shakespeare said, "borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry". What it often obscures to you is that you aren't living below your means. So whatever you plan for yourself find out when it's all said and done whether you are living below your means or not.

Even if you can reach 3%-5% below your means and truly stick to it, you will be giving yourself a huge hand. It takes time to appreciate it, and because of that it's sometimes hard to figure out while you make excuses of being too poor to save, and putting off this financial discipline till you "made it". But the truth is that this is most important before you are financially comfortable and you need to start as soon as you can.

What I've tried to impart to you in this long winded post is that no matter how poor you feel, you are very fortunate and can do so if you stop feeling sorry for yourself and force the discipline you need to get out of it.

When you get those little bits of fortune, spending it on the things you want and the things you even "need" (like shoes, clothes) can prevent you from using the fortune to better your situation.

I spent a few of my early working years thinking I was completely justified in finally buying another pair of pants (to go with the 3 I owned) or a pair of shoes that weren't from Payless so that the kids wouldn't laugh at me. I thought these were justified but the truth is that I'd be much better off now if I'd always held back just a little bit. Maybe didn't treat myself to McDonalds and stuck with the bread and soda for another day.

Those little sacrifices as a way of life would have given me a huge head start. And if you can sacrifice now, even as unfortunate and poor as you feel it will help you build your way out of this.

Remember, the only wealth that's going to help you now is what you can keep and grow in a bank, not what you can buy with it or how much you are making. Income and things come and go, you need to build some stability for yourself and that only comes with always living below your means, however humble they may be.

2) Take initiative. Most people, and you are no exception, are like wheelbarrows. They go no further than they are pushed. Sure, you think you work hard, and no doubt you do... once you are pointed at the stack of work to do. But what I can clearly tell is that you aren't a go-getter who's going out and looking for it.

When people tell you try harder, they aren't saying you should be doing a more physically demanding job, and you should be more physically tired. They are saying that you should be sacrificing some leisure for some initiative.

I did manual labor, and I took pride in doing it as well as I could, but I was under no illusion that the secret to success was just applying myself and working harder. I needed to go out and hunt for the other rungs on the ladder to get a step up. Hell often it meant I'd not be working quite as hard (at least not physically).

So stop deluding yourself into thinking that just because you work hard at your job (which you want out of) you are doing enough. You might be a complete slacker when it comes to looking for financial aid, new jobs, researching and working your way out.

Do you know financial aid inside and out? You have no excuse not to, schedule a visit with your community college counselor and they'll break it down for you. Sure I'd rather stack boxes for 10 hours than make that trip but that's where you need to be putting your effort.

Do you do several job interviews per month (always)? Well if you don't like your job, and aren't happy with where you are there's absolutely no excuse for not being able to put enough effort into your career goals to generate one interview a month.

If you are doing 1 or more a month and aren't getting where you want then start doing different interviews. Shoot for something bigger and try to get lucky.

If you are gainfully employed, even at minimum wage, you have surviving covered. So you have time to get lucky at take a step up.

So try things like applying for an office job instead of a service job, it may be a harder door to crack but you can spend your time while you are in your survival job. Look for cable TV phone support instead of fast food, look for white collar grunt work to get your foot in the door even if blue collar work is all you seem to be able to get right now if you play your cards right someone is going to take a chance on you, but it's not going to fall from the sky. You need to work hard at it. And this is what everyone's talking about when they say "try harder". Nobody here is expecting you to take this advice and then stack more boxes at your job tomorrow. So telling us how hard you work at your job is just more self-serving excuses.

What they mean is instead of blowing your paychecks on xanax, alcohol, and poker use it to get tools that will help your vertical career movement. Start getting the dress shirts you'll need at a higher rung (and for the job interview to get there), start the savings for the "A to B" car you'll buy to open up more job opportunities, and get the **** off the message board whining about being poor and get on a job board and do something about it.

And if you want advice, and ask about what your "options" are, then don't be too damned proud to learn, to be the student instead of the know-it-all.

You say you need to know how to write a resume? Then try earnest instead of dismissive and learn. There are a number of people who can give you great tips. I'd go over your resume for you and help rewrite it, there's plenty of generous people around you willing to help.

But they can't help you if you won't help yourself, get off your ass and get out of your routine. Find out what you need to do to get where you want to be, and have discipline to stick with your plan.

Want out? Then make a budget, stick to it. Work harder at trying to find better jobs, decide how you are going to get your marketable skill, are you going to study? They do it already, want to work your way then get a job with some vertical growth.

You are young, and in the top 12% of the world when it comes to wealth. You are the only person who can stop you from reaching success.

And OGIONIK, book mark Robert's post and refer to it often.

Robert, nice piece of work you've done here. You've gone much farther than I would have. Show's me I've got something to think about.

Why does crime exist?

Because there ever has and ever will be a percentage of the population who don't care to abide by the rules of society.

There are many reasons for this but the least prevalent of them is necessity, particularly in the Western nations.

What do poor people do when they can't eat?

They find some way to honestly make money, even if it is begging.

If all of the poor people that live and have lived in the world had no choice but crime to feed themselves and their families the criminals would out number the law abiders, and they do not.

I think a better question for you to ask is why do so many poor people not resort to crime?

The answer might inspire you enough for you to drag yourself out of the hole of self-pity in which you seem so determined to reside.

No neg comments re RG.


To me, Ogi is attracted to cons for jumps ahead. I am so not -- I don't expect just natch agreement, but am interested in nuances.

Well, that was a lame response to RG's post, whaps self. I really have no response except total agreement.

Plus, I do wish someone said that to me. Ever.

So I'll let it go, my question about Ogi and his attraction to cons. Not that that isn't still a question, but I'm just resting from a really well written post.

I don't mean to add yet another testimony to the "Man, I had it tough" list, but like others I was out on my own before I was, legally, an adult (in my case 16). My parents were both alcoholics who, while able to keep my siblings and I under a roof and with food in our bellies, did their best to twist us into damaged goods.

Two years later I was married.

My wife and I lived in quite a nice apartment in a government subsidized complex. We paid about $150 a month for rent.

At first, I worked in a factory and she cleaned houses. I made about $60 a week and she made about $50

When we agreed I needed to get a degree, we had to cut back on expenses in order to pay for Community College tuition (night classes), and we had Mac & Cheese for dinner many a night, but we were really happy and neither of us felt poor.

It didn't take a lot of money to make us happy. We didn't look at what others had and let envy make us unhappy. Of course we wanted more, but we were willing to work our ways towards getting it, and we weren't in a hurry.

Now we are rich (and married for 36 years) and, while still happy, no happier than we were when we had very little.

There are several points here:

1) I've worked my way up from nothing and so know it can be done. I have no doubt at all that others have had it worse than me, but remain certain that the only thing that prevents anyone from doing so is themselves, and the self-imposed restrictions they place on themselves.

2) You make your own happiness, and riches are not required to do so. If you listen with a receptive ear you will hear any number of people who can easily categorize themselves as having been poor as children, declare that they didn't know they were poor at the time. They didn't think they were lacking anything of importance.

3) If your goal is excellence rather than riches, and you have any talent and, more importantly, willing to work damned hard, the latter will almost certainly follow, and if it doesn't, you sure as hell won't be poor and you will most likely be content.

There are any number of seemingly banal statements that are actually quite profound. like "Don't worry, be happy," which was the mantra of Meher Baba long before Bobby McFerrin wrote a song of the same name.

Another is "You've got to accentuate the positive, and eliminate the negative."

Focusing on the negative may make you feel somehow ultimately honest, but that's a load of crap, not to mention the way to misery.

Listening, Finn.

Sorry to all re double post earlier.

i really dont do drugs that often. :/

most the stuff you posted i am already doing or have started..

thanks for the admonishments though..

someday ill be out, i just have to wait. and i guess i was whining, but i was drinking , and all i can think of is my dog being sent to the pound on monday. i can barely even type right now.
got me in a very bad mood. feeling helpless sucks.. i hate time. its always the catch.

sidenote, i had a dream i was in the industrial area of town, and i walked into a machine shop and got a job.

haha weird i know, but it gave me a sort of hope.

Standing O, Robert. Nice work. Though I suspect actually reading it may prove too much for him...