You raised me this way, now why are you surprised?

@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

I would also have to watch them - One such individual took two lunches on one day - I called him on it and he whined oh, I forgot that I took an early lunch and then so and so said lets go to lunch. I am telling you - this young man would whine consistently about everything.

He did at one point get canned.

I've had colleagues like that both young and old. Not recognized any generational pattern in it really.

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@nimh,

I agree! Certain classes didn't really require an attendance and professors
would hand out a sheet when term papers were due and when there was a
quiz. I rather worked through the subject matter by myself at home
then beating traffic, trying to find parking on campus and sitting in class with
a handful of people, as the others were smart enough to stay home.

Today, they offer online courses to ease the student body in certain universities
(like here in southern California) as campuses are hopelessly crowded.
----

Not spoiling a child and trying to teach them the value of money is quite
hard actually, especially when you start at a younger age with them. My daughter is 13 years old and thinks money grows on trees. I have started
to make her work for her allowance, but it doesn't make too much of a dent
yet *sigh*

1 Reply

@Butrflynet,

Butrflynet wrote:

I finished highschool in the early 70s. We never had any of that treatment in school. It was still the dog eat dog competition with the Jones to be the best and most successful and you never dared fail because of what the neighbors might think.

It was probably that mentality that converted into the mindset of the 80's and 90's where no one is a failure if they at least tried.

Hmm... I think the way you phrased this is interesting, in that it raises the question whether the latter thing is actually worse than the former thing. Seems like the upsides of the new model may weigh up against their downsides.

chai2 wrote:

I could be wrong, but based on what you've written it seems you have little practice with putting yourself in the other persons shoes.

Uuhmmm.... All I know about you is what you write on a2k and how you write it, of course... but based on your posts here, I'm finding it a little ironic that you should fault someone else for being rude and/or insufficiently empathic... I mean, haven't you tended to come into relationships / life-problems type threads and pass swift and often harsh judgements on people/situations? No sugarcoating and telling it like it is, is I think how you prefer to call it... but I'm sure you're familiar with the complaints that it it has sometimes come across more like a lack of willingness to put yourself in the other person's shoes, instead of just shooting out off-the-cuff opinions and judgements.

Not saying you should suddenly become Miss Make-Nice or something... That wouldnt be you, and would probably come at the expense of your sharp wit, and you can be very funny. Just, yeah, it's a bit ironic. I suppose one could even say that by passing judgement on Nick this way, on the basis of a couple of posts and the way you interpret his profile, is itself the antithesis of "putting yourself in the other persons shoes" -- so do you practice what you preach?

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@CalamityJane,

My mom used to give me allowance in my own "Bank Account" starting when I was 10 or 12. She kept all the money in a shoe box in her closet. She also took a bunch of withdraw slips from the bank, and gave those to me. Every week my allowance would go into the box, and I would have to record that so I always knew what the balance was. Then if I wanted to spend money on something, I had to fill out a withdraw slip, as well as record the withdraw in my book.

Later on, she started giving me interest, at some ridiculously high rate (10 or 15 % per week). I quickly learned that saving the money was better then spending it right away. However after awhile I had over $100 in the box, and mom was supposed to pay me an extra 10 or 15 bucks on top of my usual allowance. At that point the bank went out of business, and she just started giving me the money directly (she felt I learned the lesson, and didn't have to hassle with "running the bank").

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@Nick Ashley,

Nick Ashley wrote:

I've never had anyone complain that I am too impatient.

Blimey...after seeing your responses here I think that patience would warrant a place in your "most apparent and appreciated virtues" list!!!

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@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

Now that teacher is showing his own sort of entitlement.

Indeed.

I guess the trick is to work out what is rational and reasonable "entitlement", and what is not.

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@Nick Ashley,

Sounds as though your mother is very wise!!!

Unless you still keep your money in a shoebox, of course.....

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Ra Ra Ra! Let the generation wars begin! LOL

I am 25. I spent 7 years in college after switching from Art/Film to Aerospace Engineering. A complete 180.

I can tell you, I was never rewarded for my effort. Maybe that's just the engineering world. The only effort I know that is valued in post product in analysis, and that's typically research.

I think articles like the one posted are humorous because they identify how self centered the students are as if it was unique to just them. Nevermind the research professors who have to be convinced ot teach their classes or simple read directly off the notes everyone has and could read on their own.

More thoughts to come.

T
K
O

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

I will say this though, I met plenty of people just like the worst you can imagine from that article, but your opinion of them is about the same as the opinion of their peers. To classify a whole generation like this seems too simplistic.

I question the writer's proximity to the subject matter, and/or their understanding of the generation in which they are writing about.

Some of my classes I couldn't miss more than 2 periods (for any reason) before losing a full letter grade. Many of my classes required not only for me to be there, but also for me to find extra time to supplement class. Did I expect class points for my lab time? No. Was that the desire of my peers? Not that I witnessed.

Did my professors know that I stayed in the lab until 4AM? 5AM? Yes. Did they know because I was trying to leverage extra points for "effort?" No. They knew, because that's how engineers joke and socialize.

I think it's ridiculous to simply accept this writer's conclusions on face value. As for the polls that they provided, I think the questions were tailored to make it seem like today's college student doesn't understand hard work or whatever.

In short: This article only reflects to me a culture gap, and not any real noteworthy conclusion about an entire generation. The things observed are far from unique to my peers.

I take great offense to this rubbish, and to quote the Stones: "Stop talkin' bout my generation."

T
K
O

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There's a point there in the article that I think bears new mention. It talks about students who expect a B in exchange for moderate performance. Thing is, most universities now set B as the average grade -- some explicitly, some implicitly. (Link -- http://www.gradeinflation.com/ -- is about grade inflation, but backs up that the average grade is a B, as the average GPA is around 3.0.) I was surprised by this when I returned to school a few years ago,* but it is the way things work -- and so there's no reason to expect students to think they need to do anything more than keep up to get a B.

*My first university did not give letter grades, but rather gave narrative evaluations and pass/fail grades when I attended. This sounds like an easy road, and it was at times, but in the smaller courses I took (which, in the arts, is most of them), these could be quite candid and brutal, where the narrative description of your progress might praise the quality of your work while denigrating your work ethic (or vice versa). And I did have a lecture course where the evaluation noted something along the lines of "Failed nearly all in-class quizzes, but had one of the top scores on the final exam." In a letter grade course, that probably would have just shown up as a B.

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@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

and to quote the Stones: "Stop talkin' bout my generation."

T
K
O

Nice touch.

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@patiodog,

Grade inflation is a hard call.

I didn't have to take the class, but there is one that was infamous at my school: Chem 3.

The grade scale was such that 50% was a C and if I remember correctly, 75% was an A.

Was it grade inflation to get an A? Or was it grade deflation to grade an A student with 75%? The answer may not be as clear as you think. To have the answer you'd have to be able to evaluate the competency of someone with the C, and someone with the A. The problem with courses like this was that the student would study hard, know the material well, but the teacher would test over material not covered in class or the book. This is why the class was infamous. So. You might walk away from you two first tests with under 50% on both. By most conventional standards, this is failing.

Now comes the last day to drop the course, you as the student would be faced with the psychological trial of whether or not to drop.

In the end, you have a teacher testing you over material which you should not be expected to know, giving you a letter grade you actually deserve, but from a percentage which makes you always question your own competency.

Chem3 took more than a strong base in chemistry, it took mental rigor to brave out the course. It was one of the "weed-out" courses at my school.

So what was it? Grade inflation? They got an A for a 75% right? But that 75% wasn't actually representative of the curriculum was it? Letters and percentages are not going to give you the incite of the performance of a student. honestly. Perhaps many schools are trying different things, and to an old school gen (<--lol, get it?) it seems like today's students are getting a discounted education or being babied through the process.

I of course, mostly speak of my experience in an engineering school, but for the two years I spent as a liberal arts major, I can only say that my peers were also very accomplishment oriented.

Painting - They'd be working on a series, not talking about a great idea.
Writing - They'd be showing their work around to professors and looking for improvements.
etc etc etc

I guess in the creative arts, your product is your ideas.

T
K
O

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

Yep, I've been through a programming course like that. Wasn't quite that extreme, but still pretty bad. That was the only course I went to the computer lab for, and was there for 6 hours a day some weeks. The room was full of people in my class, and we would all try to help each other out, without cheating (the professor encouraged this). It was a great lesson in working with peers, I must say. However it was tough to constantly turn in programs that only partially worked. Sometimes they wouldn't even compile. Must have been hell to grade.

It was would I would consider the final CS weed out course. If you passed it, you were home free. My friends that made it through would joke with me that "We lost a lot of good men in that battle".

1 Reply

@Nick Ashley,

Nick Ashley wrote:

My mom used to give me allowance in my own "Bank Account" starting when I was 10 or 12. She kept all the money in a shoe box in her closet. She also took a bunch of withdraw slips from the bank, and gave those to me. Every week my allowance would go into the box, and I would have to record that so I always knew what the balance was. Then if I wanted to spend money on something, I had to fill out a withdraw slip, as well as record the withdraw in my book.

Later on, she started giving me interest, at some ridiculously high rate (10 or 15 % per week). I quickly learned that saving the money was better then spending it right away. However after awhile I had over $100 in the box, and mom was supposed to pay me an extra 10 or 15 bucks on top of my usual allowance. At that point the bank went out of business, and she just started giving me the money directly (she felt I learned the lesson, and didn't have to hassle with "running the bank").

Hah! That is an excellent idea, Nick. I shall try this, especially since my kid's
allowance money is spent on foolish things right now. Your mom was indeed very wise, giving high interest rates definitely encourages savings. Thanks for sharing that!

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@McTag,

Quote:

A worrying trend is that most kids seem to have little or no respect for authority, represented at school by the teachers, because they have come to believe that everything should be arranged for their individual benefit.

This one worries me as well. This is as much from the adults not requiring it from children as it is from parents not teaching them. I watch how my children treat different individuals and was appalled when they were sassing back a man at church. He is such a nice man but allows the kids to treat him as though he is their age. I am uncomfortable with this. I am not sure how to approach it or if I should even, from my boys end of course. But I definitely believe that respect for adults and each other is huge and it is missing in many children. My boys do not treat everyone this way - they are usually very respectful and polite. I feel that they should treat all adults with respect and that the sass must stop. Am I off base here?

I am reading the thread Mame - haven't gotten through it all yet - but I will...great topic.

1 Reply

@patiodog,

In my day - early sixties - (harrumph, sputter) - the average, 50 percentile, was a straight C. A started around 90 percentile, maybe 92, and B somewhere inbetween that I forget.

In many of my smaller courses there were no A's. I got the only A in a few course of various numbers of students, balanced by a patch of unpleasant D's - D's for which I worked myself silly. So the switch to Pass/Fail, just after my uni years, was in many ways a reaction to the tough grading system.
At this point I don't really care - just that it would be useful if those who ever consider grades be apprised of the differences in grading melieu.

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@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO said:

Quote:

I will say this though, I met plenty of people just like the worst you can imagine from that article, but your opinion of them is about the same as the opinion of their peers. To classify a whole generation like this seems too simplistic.

Yes -- I agree with this. I see kids all the time who I think work unbelievably hard at their school work. I've never taught in a college - but I've taught students in this age group who I could never characterize as 'entitled' or 'rude' or 'lazy. I think it's a definite subset of our current society, just as it's been a definite subset of every generation of any society.

My own kids bear it out - my son has his birthday money from his next two birthdays already spent while my daughter has her birthday money from her lasts five birthdays sitting safely in the bank.

My son is just like my sister - his aunt- and my daughter is just like my father - her grandfather. Different personalities and different generations.

I think I was lucky - I always went to class and liked it (except Chemistry). And I went to that class because I had to - I'd have failed big time if I hadn't. I was never smarter than any of my teachers- I could always learn something.

I really do believe that sometimes there are things that are more important than school. Although I went every day and liked it- I also understand that it's very stressful for other kids. When we moved back to the states and my daughter was scared to start her new highschool we went in and she was crying so we went to sit with her guidance counselor who called her by the wrong name and this woman told me, 'Mom - go home - she'll be fine'. She didn't even know my daughter's name much less who she was or how she might be or how much of a big deal it was that she was crying - did she cry at the drop of a hat or did it really mean something for this particular girl to be crying in front of strangers?

So I said, 'No, I think we'll make the first day tomorrow...what's she gonna miss today anyway - people assigning locker numbers and handing out textbooks?'

And this woman said, 'I think you're making a big mistake.'

I disagreed - so me and Olivia went to Denny's and ate biscuits and gravy and then went home and watched 'Little Miss Sunshine'.

If grades are inflated it's because adults haven't stuck to their principles. You can't blame that on the kids. You can't blame any of this stuff on the kids - which is what the author is saying, right? So maybe she's not that far off the mark.
Maybe there are a lot of codependent parents and children out there.

1 Reply

@aidan,

You think about yourself too much Becks.

And you're not alone.

There's a world out there which is fascinating in all its aspects. It's the "process" and not the finished product that counts.

Quote:

So I said, 'No, I think we'll make the first day tomorrow...what's she gonna miss today anyway - people assigning locker numbers and handing out textbooks?'

And this woman said, 'I think you're making a big mistake.'

Who knows now what she missed? One thing she missed is being like all the rest.

"Baby can't be blessed till she sees finally that she's just like all the rest."

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How can someone forget that they already took lunch?

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@Nick Ashley,

Nick Ashley wrote:

Yep, I've been through a programming course like that. Wasn't quite that extreme, but still pretty bad. That was the only course I went to the computer lab for, and was there for 6 hours a day some weeks. The room was full of people in my class, and we would all try to help each other out, without cheating (the professor encouraged this). It was a great lesson in working with peers, I must say. However it was tough to constantly turn in programs that only partially worked. Sometimes they wouldn't even compile. Must have been hell to grade.

It was would I would consider the final CS weed out course. If you passed it, you were home free. My friends that made it through would joke with me that "We lost a lot of good men in that battle".

Actually I just thought of a really great example where effort is what should be graded on. I took a graduate level course in aerodynamics called Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD). Not once in the class did anyone get a correct answer. Think about what I just said. Not a single person.

The reason? Because the course dealt with material that didn't have clear answers. We all knew going in the challenges with making computer models of fluid flow etc. The course wasn't about completing the course and then being able to write your own CFD program, it was about understanding the problems and challenges with the current "solutions" and how they are flawed/can be improved.

We learned more from having 12 non-functional computer programs and having to justify what we learned in our papers, than we would have by simply using industry code that was already made.

Model the flow through this pipe.

Option 1: use FLUENT (a commercial code) and get a solution! An accomplishment, but what didn't learn about CFD, we learned about FLUENT.

Option 2: write own own code, and continuously fail to get a converging solution. No accomplishment, but the effort put in helped us understand more about CFD.

T
K
O

3 Replies

You raised me this way, now why are you surprised?

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