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AFGHANISTAN - A LESSON 200 YEARS OLD

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 06:24 pm
From the BBC:


Q&A: Afghan election


Afghans go to the polls on 20 August to vote for a president and members of the provincial council.

There are more than 30 presidential candidates in the race, including the incumbent, Hamid Karzai.

The election is being held against a backdrop of increased violence, especially in the south and east where international and Afghan government forces are engaged in operations against the resurgent Taliban.


Will it be safe to vote?


The election was postponed for several months due to concerns over security.

The Taliban have threatened to disrupt the election and have urged Afghans to boycott them. They say the outcome has already been decided in Washington.

There are fears that the lack of security may lead to a low turnout and disenfranchisement of some voters, particularly women.

There are also fears that international observers may be unable to reach polling stations due to poor security.

The national police and army, with the help of the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf), have made preparations to ensure voting is carried out in a peaceful atmosphere.

On polling day, the police and army will provide the first and second layers of security at the polling stations with international forces on standby.

The leading presidential candidates have all addressed the issue of engaging in talks with the Taliban if elected.


Who are the main candidates?


President Karzai's two main opponents are former Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah and former Finance Minister Ashraf Ghani.

There are also a large number of relatively unknown presidential hopefuls, ranging from pro-Taliban and pro-jihadi figures to former communists. Two women are also standing.

The head of the electoral commission, Azizollah Ludin, has complained about the calibre of some of the candidates. He said the commission's recommendations for changes to the vetting rules for candidates had not been acted upon by parliament.

Mr Ludin has accused some hopefuls of committing war crimes and even suffering from mental disorders.

Two presidential and 54 provincial council hopefuls were disqualified from taking part in the election for alleged possession of weapons, links with outlawed armed groups and other irregularities, including dual citizenship.


How does the election system work?


The president of Afghanistan is elected for a five-year term and can serve a maximum of two terms.

In order to win the election, a presidential candidate must receive more than 50% of the votes cast.

If no-one receives this, a runoff election is held within two weeks of the announcement of the results.

Presidential candidates must hold Afghan citizenship and be born of Afghan parents. They are not allowed to hold any other nationality. They must also be Muslims and be at least 40 years old.

What about the voters?


There will be separate voting areas for men and women during the poll

There are 17 million out of an estimated 30 million Afghans registered to vote. The minimum voting age is 18.

Afghan refugees in Pakistan and Iran will not take part in the election.

There are approximately 7,000 polling centres across Afghanistan, with separate areas for men and women.

The ballots will be counted by hand at each polling centre as soon as voting ends.

It is estimated that counting could take two to three weeks and should be complete by 2 September.

During this period, the Electoral Complaints Commission (ECC) will deal with any complaints submitted regarding the conduct of the electoral process.

Preliminary results of the presidential election may be announced, pending adjudication of complaints, between 3 -16 September.

The final results will be declared on 17 September. If a presidential runoff election is required, the announcement will also be made then.

More than 3,000 donkeys are being mobilised for the vote. They will help to deliver and collect ballots in remote areas.

The logistics of setting up polling stations in a country ravaged by security concerns, rugged terrain and a lack of infrastructure has prompted a senior UN official in Afghanistan to describe the poll as the most complicated he has seen.

Of 7,000 polling centres across the country, doubts remain whether the vote can be held in about 700 of them because of security concerns.

Almost all the problematic centres are in the country's ethnic Pashtun areas, where the insurgency is at its strongest.

What is the media's role?


The flourishing Afghan media have taken a keen interest in the elections. The Kabul Weekly reported in July that: "The airwaves are so flooded with the election-related broadcasts that it is hard to find any other topic on the TV or radio."

The leading television stations - both private and state-run channels - have carried special election programmes on a daily basis, interviewing candidates or their representatives and conducting debates among several contenders.

Media comment has also highlighted security concerns and fears about fraud and rigging and has been vocal in warning about the consequences of the ethnic card being played in the elections.

Some candidates have accused the state-run broadcaster of bias in favour of the incumbent president, a charge rejected by government officials.

Who are the observers?


The European Union officially launched its observation mission in July.

Some 67 observers from 25 countries, backed up by a further 50 on polling day, will be assigned to monitor the electoral process in a majority of the 34 provinces of the country from eight regional centres, an EU official said.

Western officials say that legitimacy of the elections - the third since the Taliban were ousted from power in 2001- may hinge on the ability to hold them in as many areas of the south and east as possible.

The UN has said that it is "tremendously important" to provide access to the polling stations to as many people as possible.


What about the provincial councils?


There is a provincial council in every province with membership proportionate to the population. Members of the provincial council are elected every four years.

This year, more than 3,000 candidates will be contesting 420 council seats in 34 provinces.

Women are guaranteed two seats on each provincial council.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8179845.stm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 06:30 pm
Afghan poll media blackout urged
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46226000/jpg/_46226988_men-afp_226b.jpg
Afghanistan's media has flourished in the last eight years

Afghanistan has called on domestic and foreign media not to cover any violence on the day of the presidential election in case such reports scare away voters.

Quote:
The government urged a media blackout on any attacks from 0600 to 2000 during polling on Thursday and asked reporters to avoid the scene of such incidents.

Human-rights activists and journalists condemned the move. ... <cont>


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8208548.stm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 06:40 pm
Afghanistan elections: 15 photographs. (From The Guardian UK)

Here's 2 of the photographs. You can see the rest from the link below:


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/8/18/1250610500622/Boys-with-donkeys-carryin-007.jpg
Boys with donkeys carrying ballot boxes to the remote areas inPanjshir

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/8/18/1250611357525/Afghan-women-take-picture-014.jpg
Afghanistan elections : Afghan women take pictures of President Karzai in Kandahar province

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2009/aug/18/afghanistan?picture=351795515
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 08:03 pm
You know what really surprises me? Apart from this thread (which hasn't been heavily contributed to) I can't find any other threads, nor any discussion about the Afghanistan election on A2k. (Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places?) I find this really odd, given the election is tomorrow (20th August) ..... & also because many A2Kers live in countries which whose military troops are fighting in Afghanistan right now .. The US, the UK, Australia, etc, etc, etc ...
So I would have thought there'd be a lot more interest in the outcome of this election, especially given that one of the often stated reasons for NATO & other forces being there is to assist the democratic process through ensuring a safe election in Afghanistan. I don't understand: we are spending huge amounts of money on this war & there have been heavy casualties ... so why so little interest or desire to discuss this issue? (Don't get me wrong. I am not so much being critical as expressing my puzzlement. Why the lack of interest?)
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 03:13 am
@msolga,
It's a long way away.

That ******* rape act makes me want to go and kill people.

I know it's wrong, but that's what I feel like doing.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 05:19 am
@dlowan,
Quote:
It's a long way away.


True, it is. But NATO & US allies are going to be there for quite some time yet. (On the ABC the other night the prediction for "the long haul" required by Australian troops was at least 5 years.) And I see that the US has been requesting more troops from it's allies. People might be avoiding discussing the issues now, but they definitely won't be a while down the track, as the troop deaths continue to mount up!

Quote:
That ******* rape act makes me want to go and kill people.

I know it's wrong, but that's what I feel like doing.


I fully understand your fury, Deb. It's disgusting. But then, Karzai seems to have been up to quite a bit of outrageous wheeling & dealing to ensure an election win. Check out this article recently published in the AGE:

Afghans sold out by their 'saviour'

Paul McGeough, Kabul
August 18, 2009


WHEN he arrived on the world stage in his coat of many colours in 2001, Hamid Karzai was hailed as the saviour of his traumatised nation.

But he is now betraying the ideals for which so much Western blood has been spilled in Afghanistan.


Quote:
Mr Karzai's pre-election vote-buying spree is seen as a sell-out on women's rights and on the aspirations of those who fear the power of near-feudal warlords.

It has been confirmed that he has defied world outrage by quietly codifying in law the right of some Shiite men to withhold food from their wives if they did not respond to their husbands' demands for sex.

The wording of the bill was tinkered with after US President Barack Obama declared it ''abhorrent'', but it still gifts exclusive guardianship of children to their fathers and grandfathers where their parents have opted for - or are pressured into - Shiite marriage contracts.

Human rights groups claim the law contravenes the Afghan constitution and international treaties. But more important to Mr Karzai was his bid to stitch up the Shiite vote - about 20 per cent of the population - which he believes can be delivered by the law's principle backer, the Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Asef Mohseni.

Afghans are acutely aware of the perpetrators of the worst human rights abuses in their country. The Taliban era was bad, but worse was the mindless death and destruction of the early to mid-1990s, when the Mujahideen factions, who defeated the Soviets, fought senselessly for control.

Many of the most notorious are part of today's circle of power - and some rode back into that circle on the back of US tanks in 2001, when they were recruited to pursue al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

"Some of the people from the 1990s … are coming back to power through deals with Hamid Karzai and other candidates," said Afghan human rights commissioner Nader Nadery.


It is widely believed that Mr Karzai has done deals with six warlords. Foreign diplomats believe the deals grant warlords protection from prosecution and freedom for jailed associates, cabinet posts, provincial governorships and key posts in the police and military.

The Hazara warlord, Mohammad Mohaqiq, went public early this month, claiming he had been promised five cabinet posts and two vice-presidencies, two new Hazara provinces and a string of development projects.

But Mr Karzai may have made himself a political eunuch by subletting the power and treasure of the presidency.

One diplomat said: "A run-off [in the election] is too dangerous for him now - already, he has promised too much and what he would have to offer in another round would bankrupt the nation.

"He is bartering the power of the state for the moment of the election, surrendering a great deal to those who will mobilise support for him. They will be comparing notes too - it could be very volatile."

Many in the drug trade prospered after the invasion because of the US reliance on them to pursue the Taliban.

In 2005, interior minister Ali Jalali quit, reportedly because of Mr Karzai's refusal to act on a list of 100 drug kingpins Mr Jalali had compiled, which included 13 former or serving governors and four former or serving cabinet ministers.

When I asked a top foreign diplomat this week if any of his colleagues were exploring the links between drug money and political patronage, he replied: "No, that's taboo. But you assume drug money goes everywhere. The Taliban gets only a small portion and that means that a big portion goes to people inside the system."

The wealth amassed in the name of the President's brothers is the source of constant speculation.

The Karzai family's legitimate businesses include mines, the country's only cement factory, the national Toyota franchise and property.

Foreign diplomats and intelligence officials who plead with Mr Karzai for some action get the brush-off, in the form of requests for the kind of evidence that does not exist.

When evidence was available - implicating the President's brother, Ahmed Wali Karzai - it was ignored by the Bush administration and a key witness was jailed by Kabul on what was seen as a trumped-up charge.

Writing in The Wall Street Journal, the presidential candidate running third in the polls, former World Bank economist Ashraf Ghani, accused Mr Karzai of turning Afghanistan into one of the world's most corrupt states.

"He has formed alliances with criminals. He has appointed governors and police chiefs who flout the rule of law. And he has turned a blind eye to a multibillion-dollar drug trade that has crippled growth and enabled the insurgency to flourish," Mr Ghani said.


Five years on from the euphoria of the 2004 poll, Thursday's contest will be a test of the control that warlords and ethnic and religious leaders wield over their followers.

The world will be watching. And in the homes of the hundreds of dead servicemen in the West, grieving families might well wonder: what was the cause for which their sons and daughters died?


http://www.theage.com.au/world/afghans-sold-out-by-their-saviour-20090817-enmp.html?page=-1
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:55 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote :

Quote:
You know what really surprises me? Apart from this thread (which hasn't been heavily contributed to) I can't find any other threads, nor any discussion about the Afghanistan election on A2k. (Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places?) I find this really odd, given the election is tomorrow (20th August) ..... & also because many A2Kers live in countries which whose military troops are fighting in Afghanistan right now .. The US, the UK, Australia, etc, etc, etc ...


it's happening in a land "far away" ...
i know that many canadians have simply "tuned out" - unless one of their loved ones is over there ... or worse .

the canadian military (including many senior officers) used to speak quite openly to the local press about the problems in afghanistan (we are the major "staging area" for canadian military flights to afghanistan) . but they have now been muzzled by our conservative government - " must not excite the general population too much " .

so let's just talk about the weather ... it's enough to get excited about .

we have many friends that are certainly up-to-date on the problems of the world , but they'd rather not speak about afghanistan . they may nod their heads gravely but quickly switch to some other subject - the weather (too hot , too cold , too wet ... ...) is so much safer to discuss in earnest .
hbg

ps. our government "has pledged" to leave afghanistan at the end of 2011 - but NATO leadership is putting heavy pressure on the government to stay beyond 2011 (until the bitter end ???) .
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 11:04 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
. I don't understand: we are spending huge amounts of money on this war & there have been heavy casualties ... so why so little interest or desire to discuss this issue?


Because in AMerica only about 3 in 100 people has even a foggy notion of what Afghanistan is about, and about what is at stake. The Afghanistan/Pakistan/India region is highly unstable and with Nuclear weapons, thus is very important. It is also almost never been able to be tamed, thus the lack of interest from Europe and Asia in trying to deal with the problem.
hamburgboy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 09:28 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye wrote :

Quote:
Because in AMerica only about 3 in 100 people has even a foggy notion of what Afghanistan is about, and about what is at stake.

and the western governments don't seem to know or care much about that part of the world either or do they ? hbg

The Afghanistan/Pakistan/India region is highly unstable and with Nuclear weapons, thus is very important. It is also almost never been able to be tamed, thus the lack of interest from Europe and Asia in trying to deal with the problem.

wouldn't it make sense to at least TRY to have good relations with those nations ?
especially if the region is indeed considered IMPORTANT .
(of course , that takes time and patience - which we usually don't have . we are not used to long , drawn-out negotiations - and many cups of tea ; but may still have to learn how to drink tea . )
it seems to me that for the last several hundred years , the various western powers have tride to IMPOSE their will on them - rather unsuccessfully imo .hbg


hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 12:46 pm
@hamburgboy,
Quote:
wouldn't it make sense to at least TRY to have good relations with those nations


there in lies the crux of the matter.....Afghanistan and Pakistan are not nations as we think of them. They are tribal regions which have nation boundaries imposed upon them by the rest of the world. India as well, though recently they have moved closer to being a true nation.

What more than we already do are we supposed to be doing in your view?? In Afghanistan no one is in charge of much of anything, and in Pakistan the only stable authority for decades has been the military which America has gone to extraordinary lengths to develop close relations with. Our relationship with India is better than it ever has been in my lifetime.
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 07:45 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye :

having read some of rory stewart's books

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_Stewart )

it takes drinking MANY CUPS OF TEA to even be recognized in those countries or by the tribal leaders .

many western business people had to learn the art of drinking tea with japanese business people before the japanese would be willing to discuss business with them . and that still seems to be a prerequisite to any business relations even today .

btw if you can get hold of rory stewart's books , i think they give a good insight into the thinking and manners of people/tribes/cultures from "the orient" .
hbg
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 08:08 pm
@hamburgboy,
Quote:
many western business people had to learn the art of drinking tea with japanese business people before the japanese would be willing to discuss business with them . and that still seems to be a prerequisite to any business relations even today


In Afghanistan in particular and also Pakistan there is not much business to be done. However, if you take that same thinking and transpose upon it the recent history of do-gooder NGO's going into those places and trying to "SAVE" the ignorant you will see how difficult it will be to do anything constructive at this point. A lot of damage was done to the credibility of the Western argument by the NGO's which insisted on disrespecting and belittling the natives. The mostly clueless American military reinforced the opinion that all the high minded western chin wagging is propaganda, that Westerners do not themselves do what they tell others that they should do.

It will take a generation to undo the damage, and we don't have that much time.
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 08:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
In Afghanistan in particular and also Pakistan there is not much business to be done


that is certainly true for afghanistan (so what are we doing there ??? ! )
however , afghanistan seems lately to have become more important to india and pakistan as a trade route to the west .
it's no doubt very difficult for us to know what is truly going on over there .
i imagine there is "more than meets the eye" to it .
even just googling brings up lots of articles on that subject .

http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLJ_enCA233CA233&q=afghanistan+%2b+business+investment

still , simply to make more than contact by the gun , "the drinking of tea" (and observing and respecting the local customs) seems to be about the only way to even be able to establish some kind of contact with the tribal leaders in those areas .

i suppose one might compare the western "intrusion" into those countries to a meeting of the 21st century and the 15th century peoples - a mighty clash of different customs , ideas etc.

i still recommend rory stewart btw. - it's at least a good read imo .
hbg
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 08:50 pm
@hamburgboy,
you guys are forgetting the cash crop from Afghanistan.

there is lots of business done there, it is just not publicized...
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 08:54 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Quote:
That ******* rape act makes me want to go and kill people.

I know it's wrong, but that's what I feel like doing.

I fully understand your fury, Deb. It's disgusting.


i also agree .
...................................................................................................................
...but , if we go back into our own history , we'll find plenty of cruelty to be digusted about .
as i wrote in one of my post , it's perhaps somewhat like a clash between 21st century and 15th century peoples - neither side is able to understand the other side .
both sides think that surely the others must be completely wrong .

even in our own countries even today we can certainly find plenty we do not approve of , but ... ... it never-the-less happens ... ... sadly enough .
hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 09:01 pm
@Rockhead,
Quote:
you guys are forgetting the cash crop from Afghanistan.

there is lots of business done there, it is just not publicized...


and i bet that all the money finds its way back into "legitimate" business eventually .

(didn't someone say : "money does not stink" !

Money does not stink. (This is a saying attributed to the first-century Roman emperor Vespasian. When he was criticized by his son Titus for having put a tax on public latrines, the emperor replied that money does not stink, no matter where it comes from.) )
hbg
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 07:54 am
@hamburgboy,
AFGHAN ELECTION
---------------------------
it looks as if the afghan election was about on par with elections in some "western countries" .

from the BBC : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8215612.stm

Quote:
A leading group of election observers say there was widespread voting fraud and intimidation during Thursday's presidential election in Afghanistan.

Stuffed ballot boxes, illiterate voters being told who to vote for and biased officials were cited by Afghanistan's Free and Fair Election Foundation.

However EU monitors said that despite widespread intimidation and violence, the vote was generally good and fair.
There have been rival claims of victory but no winner has been announced.

The chief EU observer said it was still early days in assessing the election.

The Free and Fair Election Foundation's provisional report also details accounts of multiple voting, underage voting and election officials being ejected from polling stations by representatives of candidates.


so perhaps we shouldn't be too critical .
seems that the voter turnout was about as good as in many western countries - if not better .
perhaps they aren't the savages we think they are - they just might want to be left alone .
hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 02:31 pm
@msolga,
MORE BAD NEWS FROM AFGHANISTAN !
..............................................................

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/state-of-afghanistan-deteriorating-top-us-commander-says/article1261705/

(i'm sure it is also reported in many other newspapers - in case the link does not work)

just a short part of the full report - but it's bad enough , a/t admiral mullen .

Quote:
Paul Koring

Washington " From Monday's Globe and Mail
Last updated on Tuesday, Aug. 25, 2009 03:29AM EDT


.The war in Afghanistan is going so badly " “it is serious and it is deteriorating” " that America's top military commander Admiral Mike Mullen was grimly preparing a war-weary public Sunday for the possibility that many more U.S soldiers may soon be needed to quell the raging Taliban insurgency.

This already has been the bloodiest summer for both foreign troops and Afghans since 2001.

U.S. commanders are expected to ask President Barack Obama " who campaigned on getting Americans troops out of Iraq so they could focus on winning in Afghanistan " for three or four additional brigades (as many as 20,000 more soldiers) next month.

Sunday's high-profile round of televised interviews launched a campaign to drum up flagging public support.

0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 07:21 am
Hamburgerboy,

I agree that the Afghanistan war is not going well and too many innocents are getting killed and perhaps the Afghanistan people do want us to leave, but we were attacked by AQ and the Taliban has harbored and merged with AQ, what are we supposed to do, just pack up our stuff and do nothing to go after those guys and just let them attack us again? Are we supposed to do just let them get away with it (9/11) and mass and attack us again?

Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 08:15 am
@revel,
Your comment is the first I have seen saying that AQ and the Taliban have merged. Do you have proof? I feel that they are essentially separate. Also, the Taliban are Afghans, and they own the country. We should sit down with them and agree to leave forthwith if they agree to expell any AQ and not attack our troops.

We cannot win in that country. The people hate us as occupiers. Should we now and then fight and win control of a village or city, the people know that we will not stay in force very long and that the Taliban will return and wreak revenge on those who cooperated with us. Thus, we cannot win the ordinary person over.
0 Replies
 
 

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