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AFGHANISTAN - A LESSON 200 YEARS OLD

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 01:46 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the asshole of humanity called afghanistan


Charming! It may come as something of a surprise to you, hawkeye, but the Afghans are simply ordinary people, just like me & you. And maybe they simply desire reasonably safe & comfortable lives, which you & I might take for granted as "normal"?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 02:07 am
@msolga,
In the process of my work I teach a number of the flotsam & jetsam of the conflicts in Afghanistan. And I can tell you that the impact of having to flee their homes because of intolerable internal strife, & also the chaos & danger caused by foreign invasion & occupation, can be traumatic. Many have no choice but to leave their homes. And what what do they find when they seek asylum in the very countries that are staging their ideological wars in their country?: detention, as illegal immigrants. All too often.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 02:10 am
@msolga,
Quote:

Charming! It may come as something of a surprise to you, hawkeye, but the Afghans are simply ordinary people, just like me & you. And maybe they simply desire reasonably safe & comfortable lives, which you & I might take for granted as "normal"?


maybe, but so what? They have nothing to offer humanity, and nothing to threaten humanity with...they don't matter. If they all did not exist humanity would not be changed. We (the Americans) are in Afghanistan because of Pakistan, full stop. If we cared about afghanistan we would have taken Osama out, but we let it all slide until we figured out that the Taliban might be able to take Pakistan, and this get the nukes and give them to Osama and his ilk to blow up parts of the developed world. If it was just a matter of waiting for Pakistan and India to blow each other up we would not get in the way, as we don't care about either one.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 02:26 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
maybe, but so what? They have nothing to offer humanity, and nothing to threaten humanity with...they don't matter.


I really can't believe you said that. What is wrong with you?
Can't you understand that people feel exactly the same things under such desperate circumstances, no matter what their nationality?

You don't understand that political posturing is just politics?

You think that political positions are more important than the lives of ordinary human beings? I don't. Absolutely.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 02:47 am
@msolga,
I have neither the time nor the inclination to try to empathize with nearly seven billion human souls. I care about me and those around me, what is in our best interests, what our problems are. If a particular person can neither help me nor hurt me (say an afghan for instance) then I don't care about them. The other seven billion humans should behave likewise in my opinion, look after themselves and those around them, but if they choose not to that is not my problem. My dance card is full.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 03:10 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I have neither the time nor the inclination to try to empathize with nearly seven billion human souls.


OK, you couldn't give a **** about anyone but yourself & your own weakness for flawed ideology. No need to say more. I get it.

Is there anything more to be discussed with you on this subject, then?

Me, I care a whole lot more about the fate of the people of Afghanistan than I do about your political "position".
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 08:07 pm
@msolga,
president karzai has become quite outspoken in telling the western powers that he does not want to fight the taleban , he wants to talk to them .
he has also made it quite clear that afghan people do not like to see their countrymen killed by western military strikes against the taleban .
it seems to me that he is asking the western powers "to lay off " .

it'll be interesting to watch the response of western governments - will they get the message to leave the afghans alone ?

so far , western powers seem to have been unable to do much for the vast majority of afghans .

sure , there have been slight improvement and here and there , but there have also been plenty of setbacks .

i also doubt that pakistan is going "to roll over" for the americans . the pakistan government knows only too well what happened in vietnam - they likely don't want to suffer the same fate .

have american governments - and other western governments - really learned next to nothing from the vietnam defeat ?
btw vietnam is now a good trade partner of the u.s. - there really was no reason for american youth to be sacrificed for that , was there ?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6719241.ece

Quote:
The president of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, has urged the West to develop a new strategy for his country, warning that more troops will not necessarily improve security.


“Military operations are no longer enough,” he said as the deaths of British and coalition soldiers in Afghanistan reached their highest monthly total of the eight-year war. “We have to rethink the way we do things " without that there won’t be any improvement.”


Karzai called for negotiations with the Taliban. Even Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, should be encouraged to attend talks, he said.


Speaking yesterday in an office so heavily secured that journalists are no longer allowed to take in pens or lipstick, the president expressed his sorrow at the mounting toll of British troops but cast doubt on the value of sending more.


American soldiers have been pouring into Afghanistan over the past few months as the United States more than doubles its strength from 32,000 to 68,000 this year, along with 36,000 troops from other western allies. This is partly to secure the country for the elections next month, yet the situation continues to worsen.

“I don’t think the increase in troops will address the problem,” Karzai said. “We need to concentrate on finding other avenues of defeating terrorism and seeking peace.
0 Replies
 
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 11:57 am
@msolga,
AFGHANISTAN
HELMAND PROVINCE - THE LONG AND DIFFICULT ROAD AHEAD

from the BBC , july 11 , 2009

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8145683.stm

headlines from the report :

Quote:
Many have warned that a long and difficult road lies ahead in Helmand province and that there will be more casualties this summer and beyond


and a military historian allan mallison states :

Quote:
We can't cut and run from this one. We can't afford to lose


i wonder if mr. mallison can tell us WHY the western nations simply stumbled into afghanistan ?
and perhaps he can tell us what effort would be required to turn things around - and bring freedom from war , death , starvation ... to the "ordinary' afghan people ?
it's usually not that difficult to write about history , but how about writing about the future - beyond saying : "We can't cut and run from this one. We can't afford to lose " - that doesn't really tell us anythinhg of value , does it ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and from the report by the BBC :

Quote:
New strategy

The hope, expressed by then Defence Secretary John Reid, that British forces might leave without a shot being fired was a forlorn one, and now sounds hopelessly naive as British troops see some of their fiercest fighting in years.

So far, they have fired more than four million bullets, in a campaign which has cost £5.6bn and 184 British lives - 15 of them this month.

Commanders say the recent rise in the death toll among British and several other coalition forces - most notably the US, which provides the bulk of troops in Afghanistan - is largely down to the current offensives against the Taliban.

That new focus has come from the top in Washington, with the election of President Barack Obama, the publication of a new Afghanistan/Pakistan strategy and the appointment of a new Isaf commander.

The strategy of General Stanley McChrystal is first of all a military push against the Taliban to extend security, in the kind of operations now being seen in Helmand.

The new Isaf commander has made it clear "the population is the prize", and the military effort must go hand-in-hand with progress on the civil side.

Gen McChrystal has warned against causing civilian casualties, which have alienated many Afghans.

Western frustrations

Greater security is essential to the rebuilding effort and to give time and space for good governance to emerge.

And good governance - if it does grow - would help security by convincing the Afghan people that foreign troops are supporting an Afghan state that can bring tangible benefits to their lives.

The relative lack of progress on so many fronts, though, over the past years under President Hamid Karzai has been one of the main Western frustrations.

The levels of corruption within the Afghan government, its ineffectual reach in many provinces and the lack of a real justice system, or yet an effective police force, have all made it harder to convince the Afghan people that they are much better off now.

Despite this, only 23% of people in southern Afghanistan are said to support the Taliban, while support for the Isaf coalition has remained reasonably high despite the campaign's problems.

There is now a gritty realism dawning in the campaign, and the public acknowledgement of just how difficult all this will be in the world's fourth-poorest country, which has been torn and scarred by war for the past three decades.

Many of the Afghan middle classes who might form the backbone of the new Afghanistan have long since fled abroad, though some remain. ( HOW MANY REMAIN ? i wonder - quite a few have now settled in canada . hbg )


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
article from the TORONTO STAR :
many 1,000's of afghans have settled in toronto over the years .
they WERE part of the "backbone" of the afghan society - but theses families have now settled in toronto - and are part of the "backbone" of toronto and canada !

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/598729

Quote:
Baker, realtor, musician, lawyer, counsellor, soccer player, writer " in any conversation with Afghans in Greater Toronto, they will say, "The first thing you have to remember is we are a resilient people."

Such a conversation will invariably be accompanied by a glass of tea.
Afghans are also hospitable people.

After a generation of steady, sorrowful immigration to Canada, as one war bled into another in their homeland, the Afghan community in Toronto is coming of age, producing a homegrown band of young professionals.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 04:24 am
Two cartoonists, from two different countries & perceptions of their own country's involvement in the war in Afghanistan. Martin Rowson from the Guardian (UK):

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/7/18/1247905185867/18.07.09-Martin-Rowson-on-001.jpg
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 04:26 am
@msolga,
Leunig, fom today's Age - Melbourne, Australia:

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2009/07/22/Cartoon_July_22_gallery__572x400,0.jpg
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 04:39 am
The view from Pakistan. From today's NYT:

Pakistan Objects to U.S. Expansion in Afghan War
Published: July 21, 2009/New York Times

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/22/world/pstan_600.jpg
Pakistani Army soldiers in June at a former Taliban base near Khwazakhela in the Swat Valley.

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan " Pakistan is objecting to expanded American combat operations in neighboring Afghanistan, creating new fissures in the alliance with Washington at a critical juncture when thousands of new American forces are arriving in the region.

Pakistani officials have told the Obama administration that the Marines fighting the Taliban in southern Afghanistan will force militants across the border into Pakistan, with the potential to further inflame the troubled province of Baluchistan, according to Pakistani intelligence officials.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/22/world/pstanchart.jpg

Quote:
Pakistan does not have enough troops to deploy to Baluchistan to take on the Taliban without denuding its border with its archenemy, India, the officials said. Dialogue with the Taliban, not more fighting, is in Pakistan’s national interest, they said.

The Pakistani account made clear that even as the United States recommits troops and other resources to take on a growing Taliban threat, Pakistani officials still consider India their top priority and the Taliban militants a problem that can be negotiated. In the long term, the Taliban in Afghanistan may even remain potential allies for Pakistan, as they were in the past, once the United States leaves.

The Pakistani officials gave views starkly different from those of American officials regarding the threat presented by top Taliban commanders, some of whom the Americans say have long taken refuge on the Pakistani side of the border.

Recent Pakistani military operations against Taliban in the Swat Valley and parts of the tribal areas have done little to close the gap in perceptions.

Even as Obama administration officials praise the operations, they express frustration that Pakistan is failing to act against the full array of Islamic militants using the country as a base.

Instead, they say, Pakistani authorities have chosen to fight Pakistani Taliban who threaten their government, while ignoring Taliban and other militants fighting Americans in Afghanistan or terrorizing India. ...<cont>


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/world/asia/22pstan.html?_r=1&th&emc=th
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 03:32 am
From today's Guardian (UK):


Britain and US prepared to open talks with the Taliban
Richard Norton-Taylor
The Guardian, Tuesday 28 July 2009


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/7/27/1248726197433/A-soldier-in-Afghanistan-001.jpg
A soldier in Gereshk, Afghanistan. Gordon Brown has signalled the end of the first phase of Operation Panther's Claw, aimed at driving back the Taliban. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA Wire

A concerted effort to start unprecedented talks between Taliban and British and American envoys was outlined yesterday in a significant change in tactics designed to bring about a breakthrough in the attritional, eight-year conflict in Afghanistan.

Quote:
Senior ministers and commanders on the ground believe they have created the right conditions to open up a dialogue with "second-tier" local leaders now the Taliban have been forced back in a swath of Helmand province.

They are hoping that Britain's continuing military presence in Helmand, strengthened by the arrival of thousands of US troops, will encourage Taliban commanders to end the insurgency. There is even talk in London and Washington of a military "exit strategy". ....<cont>


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/27/britain-us-talks-taliban-afghanistan
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 10:50 pm
Afghanistan passes 'barbaric' law diminishing women's rights
Jon Boone in Kandahar
guardian.co.uk, Friday 14 August 2009 14.17 BST


Rehashed legislation allows husbands to deny wives food if they fail to obey sexual demands

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/8/1/1249157752758/Women-in-Islamic-dress-we-001.jpg
Women wearing the burka in Baharak town, Afghanistan. Photograph: Tim Wimborne/Reuters

Afghanistan has quietly passed a law permitting Shia men to deny their wives food and sustenance if they refuse to obey their husbands' sexual demands, despite international outrage over an earlier version of the legislation which President Hamid Karzai had promised to review.

The new final draft of the legislation also grants guardianship of children exclusively to their fathers and grandfathers, and requires women to get permission from their husbands to work.

"It also effectively allows a rapist to avoid prosecution by paying 'blood money' to a girl who was injured when he raped her," the US charity Human Rights Watch said.


Quote:
In early April, Barack Obama and Gordon Brown joined an international chorus of condemnation when the Guardian revealed that the earlier version of the law legalised rape within marriage, according to the UN.

Although Karzai appeared to back down, activists say the revised version of the law still contains repressive measures and contradicts the Afghan constitution and international treaties signed by the country.

Islamic law experts and human rights activists say that although the language of the original law has been changed, many of the provisions that alarmed women's rights groups remain, including this one: "Tamkeen is the readiness of the wife to submit to her husband's reasonable sexual enjoyment, and her prohibition from going out of the house, except in extreme circumstances, without her husband's permission. If any of the above provisions are not followed by the wife she is considered disobedient."

The law has been backed by the hardline Shia cleric Ayatollah Mohseni, who is thought to have influence over the voting intentions of some of the country's Shias, which make up around 20% of the population. Karzai has assiduously courted such minority leaders in the run up to next Thursday's election, which is likely to be a close run thing, according to a poll released yesterday.

Human Rights Watch, which has obtained a copy of the final law, called on all candidates to pledge to repeal the law, which it says contradicts Afghanistan's own constitution.

The group said that Karzai had "made an unthinkable deal to sell Afghan women out in the support of fundamentalists in the August 20 election".


Brad Adams, the organisation's Asia director, said: "The rights of Afghan women are being ripped up by powerful men who are using women as pawns in manoeuvres to gain power.

"These kinds of barbaric laws were supposed to have been relegated to the past with the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001, yet Karzai has revived them and given them his official stamp of approval."


The latest opinion poll by US democracy group the International Republican Institute showed that although Karzai was up 13 points to 44% since the last survey in May, his closest rival, Abdullah Abdullah, had soared from 7% to 26%.

If those numbers prove accurate, it would mean the contest would have to go to a second round run-off vote in early October. In that scenario, 50% of voters said they would vote for Karzai and 29% for Abdullah.

The survey was conducted in mid to late July, so it is not known whether Abdullah has made further gains on Karzai.

He could further increase his chance of victory by joining forces with Ashraf Ghani, the former finance minister who is also running on a platform fiercely critical of Karzai.

Fifty-eight per cent of the 2,400 people polled by IRI said they would like to see an alliance between Abdullah and Ghani, who is polling in fourth place.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/14/afghanistan-womens-rights-rape
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 01:06 am
@msolga,
Heard about this.

What a surprise.

Not.

Women's organisations there have been warning about this government for ages.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 01:12 am
@dlowan,
And Karzai's "our" preferred leader? Neutral

God (should there be one!) help the women of Afghanistan. How much worse can things get for them?

I foresee lots more refugees fleeing the place, with men like this in charge of affairs. This is "back to the future" stuff!
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 01:54 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

And Karzai's "our" preferred leader? Neutral

God (should there be one!) help the women of Afghanistan. How much worse can things get for them?

I foresee lots more refugees fleeing the place, with men like this in charge of affairs. This is "back to the future" stuff!


Almost makes you wish the Russians had won.


No denying the genocide and gulags and all, but they were SERIOUS about equal rights for women.


Sigh.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 02:34 am
@dlowan,
Quote:
No denying the genocide and gulags and all, but they were SERIOUS about equal rights for women.


Yep.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 01:48 am
Election time in Afghanistan ... this Thursday:

Corruption fears over Afghan poll
BBC news - Page last updated at 04:17 GMT, Tuesday, 18 August 2009 05:17 UK

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46221000/jpg/_46221273_007804577-1.jpg
An Afghan election worker walks past election material in Kandahar (17 August 2009)

An investigation by the BBC has found evidence of fraud and corruption in Afghanistan's presidential election.

Quote:
Thousands of voting cards have been offered for sale and thousands of dollars offered in bribes to buy votes.

The findings come as campaigning closes ahead of Thursday's election in which incumbent President Hamid Karzai faces more than 30 challengers.

Early on Tuesday, two rockets hit targets in central Kabul, without causing injuries, Reuters reports.

One rocket caused some damage inside the presidential palace compound, and a second hit the city's police headquarters.

Militants have said they will disrupt the elections, and have already targeted the capital twice this month.

A Taliban spokesman quoted by Reuters claimed that four rockets had been fired in the latest attack.

Multiple voting cards

An Afghan working for the BBC went undercover in Kabul to investigate reports that voting cards were being sold.

He was offered 1,000 cards, each costing around £6 ($10). Other vendors made similar offers.


It is impossible to know how many voting cards have been sold in such a manner, says the BBC's Ian Pannell in Kabul, but there have been a number of arrests.

Multiple voting cards are reported to have been issued to some individuals, while government workers have actively and illegally campaigned for candidates, says our correspondent.


An influential tribal leader in the north of the country said he had been offered thousands of pounds by campaign teams in exchange for delivering large blocks of votes.

Final rallies

An independent monitoring group said it had shown evidence of corruption to election officials but they had not acted on the information.

Preparations in Afghanistan for Thursday's election

But Western officials have said that, while the election will be flawed, Afghanistan should not be held to the same standards as elsewhere and that a flawed election is still better than no vote at all.

Mr Karzai is seen as the frontrunner in the race.

On Monday, a notorious ex-warlord and key ally of Mr Karzai, Gen Abdul Rashid Dostum, flew in from Turkey to endorse the president at his final campaign rally.


"We need to go with Hamid Karzai into the future," Gen Dostum told cheering supporters in Shiberghan, his home city.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46219000/jpg/_46219610_007800502-2.jpg
Gen Dostum arrives at Kabul airport, Aug 16

The return of ex-warlord Gen Abdul Rashid Dostum has alarmed the US

Two of Mr Karzai's main rivals, who formerly served under him as ministers, also held their final rallies on Monday.

In Kabul, former Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah addressed a crowd of 10,000 supporters, many wearing blue shifts or waving blue flags.

The ex-Finance Minister, Ashraf Ghani, addressed a rally of 5,000 in the eastern Nangarhar province.

Mr Ghani, who is running on a campaign of economic development, vowed to replace the "corrupt government with a legitimate one", according to French news agency, AFP.

The UN and the US both expressed concern at the timing of Gen Dostum's return and any prospective role he may have in government.

In a live televised election debate on Sunday, Mr Karzai defended his alliances with several Afghan warlords, saying they served the interests of national unity.

Taliban threat

The election is taking place amid mounting violence in the country, with Taliban militants threatening to harm anyone who takes part. There are fears that the turnout could be low as a result.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46221000/jpg/_46221282_007804868-1.jpg
Afghan women and children at a rally in Kabul (17 August 2009)

A survey by the BBC's Afghan service suggests the government has limited or no control in 30% of the country.

The survey is based on assessments by reporters in the field who found that in 4% of Afghanistan's districts, the government provides no security or services.

The majority of them are in the south, where most Taliban attacks have taken place.

A spokesman for President Karzai said the government did not agree with the findings and there were security problems in just a few districts.

Our correspondent says that, while there is evidence of corruption, above all it is the ongoing war with the Taliban - in at least a third of the country - that makes this election far from normal.

But having invested so heavily in terms of time, money and even lives, Western officials are likely to declare the vote a success - whatever the flaws and challenges, he adds.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8206469.stm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 02:18 am
From today's Guardian (UK):

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/8/18/1250553883122/18.08.09-Steve-Bell-on-th-001.jpg
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 02:59 am
Mass rallies on last campaign day for Afghan poll

Posted 11 hours 14 minutes ago
Updated 10 hours 57 minutes ago
ABC NEWs online


http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r419497_1991979.jpg
Afghans attend an election rally in support of President Hamid Karzai. (Reuters: Omar Sobhani)

Top candidates in the Afghan presidential race have addressed rallies attended by thousands of cheering supporters on the last day of campaigning for key elections overshadowed by Taliban threats.

Quote:
Seventeen million voters go to the polls on Thursday (local time) to elect a president for the second time in Afghanistan's history.

They will also elect 420 councillors in 34 provinces, in a huge logistical operation handicapped by insecurity and amid threats from the Taliban to attack polling stations.

President Hamid Karzai, who has ruled Afghanistan since the US-led invasion overthrew the Taliban regime in 2001, is the frontrunner but a strong campaign by former foreign minister Abdullah Abdullah could force a run-off.

In Kabul, more than 10,000 people poured into a stadium - a once notorious Taliban execution ground - wearing blue baseball hats, waving blue flags, carrying pictures of Mr Abdullah and chanting his name over and over again.

In a vote stunt rare for Afghanistan, a helicopter circled overhead, dropping hundreds of leaflets with Mr Abdullah's photo, election sign and number as marked on the ballot paper to help even the illiterate majority vote.

Afghan police later arrested the pilots of two helicopters and campaign staff for allegedly violating Kabul airspace by dropping the leaflets.

"Hey compatriots, wake up, it is time for a big change," said the leaflets written in the three most common Afghan languages, Dari, Pashtu and Uzbeki.

Mr Karzai, whose office said eight candidates had now abdicated in his favour, leaving about 30 contenders in the fray, came under fire for alliances with warlords during a first television debate attended by an Afghan head of state.

In a 90-minute head-to-head broadcast Sunday, he was criticised by outspoken anti-corruption campaigners, ex-finance minister Ashraf Ghani, and eccentric but popular Kabul lawmaker Ramazan Bashardost, over the alleged deals.


The US embassy in Kabul expressed serious concern to the Afghan government on Monday following the homecoming of key Karzai ally, infamous warlord General Abdul Rashid Dostum, "particularly during these historic elections". ...<cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/18/2658827.htm
0 Replies
 
 

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