Jews ask Mormons to stop baptizing dead

@blatham,

Quote:

By the by, I died several years ago. Cause of death was probably fried chicken.
In my case, this natural process of late night ganga-fuelled sex > heart attack >
. . . . Personally, upon my return, I was just about exactly
as bored as I had been before.

I guess u need better sex. (That is an observation, not an offer.)

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My grandmother was Mormon... Well actually the "Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints." They were like the protestants of the Mormons.

I wonder if my mother, sister, brother or myself have to worry about this?

None of us are Mormons, and I personally would be insulted by the gesture done upon any of our graves. It's absurd that the LDS think this is acceptable.

To be on the safe side, I think I'll have to request a water tight seal on my coffin.
K
O

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@Diest TKO,

Won't help. They use proxies.

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@Intrepid,

That was pure strawman bullshit. Nothing which i wrote suggested for a moment that i think a 13 year old is a dolt.

Rather than you putting your own brand of contempt into your response, why don't you try, for once, to step outside your superstitious prejudice to see how others might see it. You write that a 13 year old might have " . . . more than a few brain cells . . . " and that ". . . they can make a decision to continue in their faith." Their faith? Or perhaps the belief set in which they have been indoctrinated all their lives?

I agree that a baptism without consent is not worth much. A confirmation of a child's "faith" in which they have been indoctrinated all their lives, and in which ritual they are encouraged by those who feed, house and clothe them, and who are responsible for their discipline, is worth no more.

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@Diest TKO,

Quote:

It's absurd that the LDS think this is acceptable.

Perhaps. But it will seem, to them, morally incumbent upon them to proceed as they are, the eternal fate of souls being at risk.

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@blatham,

It seems to me that if Mormons believe they are obliged to baptise souls--for the sake of those souls--they are justified in doing so. If I believe that their efforts in any way affect my dead ancestors then it would mean that I am a believer in Mormon theology, which I definitely am not. From my perspective their scheme is intellectually and spiritually absurd. But it is their right.

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

Quote:
It's absurd that the LDS think this is acceptable.

Perhaps. But it will seem, to them, morally incumbent upon them to proceed as they are, the eternal fate of souls being at risk.

I'm dumbfounded at the argument they are making. How does their claim to the freedom somehow trump the dead's wishes (for that matter the truth).

That's it I'm pissed. I'm going to find some Mormon grave and I'm baptizing the **** out of them into the church of Satan, Scientology or KC Chiefs fans...

Intrepid - Good point. I'd better get cremated.

T
K
O

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@Diest TKO,

Quote:

I'm dumbfounded at the argument they are making. How does their claim to the freedom somehow trump the dead's wishes (for that matter the truth).

It is a moral and logical monstrosity. The belief or assumption is that even if these people do not themselves wish nor will baptism, at some future point they are bound to (when in the arms of god). Thus coercion (the cancellation of the right to personal liberty) becomes the greater moral good.

This is really at root about power and dominance, but smeared over with a thin veneer of justification or rationality, as in "we must destroy X to save X."

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@blatham,

Yep, it's about dominance.

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@blatham,

Quote:

It is a moral and logical monstrosity. The belief or assumption is that even if these people do not themselves wish nor will baptism, at some future point they are bound to (when in the arms of god). Thus coercion (the cancellation of the right to personal liberty) becomes the greater moral good.

This is really at root about power and dominance, but smeared over with a thin veneer of justification or rationality, as in "we must destroy X to save X."

Is this analogous in principle to an
anti-suicide argument ?

that a suicidal person shoud be deprived of his liberty,
overpowered and held in subjection ?

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@jespah,

Quote:

it's about dominance

I don 't think there 's much law about dominating the dead
(as distinct from managing n distributing decedents' estates).

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@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Quote:
it's about dominance

I don 't think there 's much law about dominating the dead
(as distinct from managing n distributing decedents' estates).

Not dominating the dead, dominating those of us who are their relatives and are still here.

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@Diest TKO,

Since the Mormons baptize by immersion, it is safe to believe that the baptism is done in the Mormon church or temple in a ceremony private to the Mormons and not at graveside. It is done by a Mormon being baptized (immersed) on behalf of the departed. I know many of my ancesters--none of them Mormon--are included in the extensive Mormon geneology database, but if the Mormons have baptized any of them, none of us were ever advised of it.

One of the components of the Mormon stated belief illustrates their special affinity for the Jews:

Quote:

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this, the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Further members of the Mormon church see themselves as inducted into one of the tribes of Israel. They see a special connection between themselves and the Jews. And they do see the act of baptism on behalf of the dead as a loving and compassionate act.

Now of course since the Jews, so far as I know, do not share any of these beliefs, I still don't see where there is any more offense in their beliefs than there are of some fundamentalist Christian groups (including the Mormons) that are certain that people like me are going straight to hell and who pray for my immortal soul. Since I don't believe as they do, I can't see how that has any affect on me of any kind.

But I could be missing something here and am always open to learn something new.

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@Setanta,

I suppose the same could be said for those brought up in an athiest or agnostic environment.

"Why don't you try, for once, to step outside your prejudice to see how others might see it." -- Your words!,

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Perhaps another level of umbrage might be if dead Nazis were also being baptized as Mormon. I do not think either group would want to rub elbows in heaven. Sometimes the best of plans of mice and men ...

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

But I could be missing something here
and am always open to learn something new.

Well, what is missing,
is that no one seems interested in asking the dead
their own sentiments about it.
Everyone acts as tho no one had ever returned from death.

According to pollster George Gallop,
about 8 million people have returned from the dead.

About 2/3 of them (like my dead friend, Neil) only remember
waking up, but the remaining third have information to reveal on the subject,
some of which was objectively verified.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

No, according to Pollster George Gallup a number of people reported 'returning from the dead' to a poll - by extrapolating from the population of the USA in 1982 a possible figure of 8 millions was reached. George Gallup did not personally interview 8 million people.

That's probably the figure for those citizens who claim that they have been kidnapped by aliens and their rectums probed and/or had sex with these aliens.

Anyhow, a 'Near Death Experience' is not the same as returning from the dead - near death = mostly alive.

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@Mr Stillwater,

Quote:

George Gallup did not personally interview 8 million people.

I did not suggest that ANYONE has ever interviewed 8,000,000 people.

Quote:

a 'Near Death Experience' is not the same as returning
from the dead - near death = mostly alive.

I disagree.
If he has flat lines on EKG, EEG and respiration,
and he testifies that his conscious mind left his material body
and went hither and yon, uphill and down dale
and made observations that r later verified,
then, according to me, that is returning from death.

I understand that in the last years of Thomas Edison,
he took an interest in this and devised experiments
that revealed a discernable loss of weight at the moment of death.

David

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Thomas Edison invented and promoted an electric chair. That's about the only interest he had in dying people. He wanted them fried with Direct Current.

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@Mr Stillwater,

Quote:

That's about the only interest he had in dying people.

Thank u for revealing this to us.
He told u this ?

Your source of information on this point ?

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Jews ask Mormons to stop baptizing dead

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