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Jews ask Mormons to stop baptizing dead

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Wed 12 Nov, 2008 09:44 am
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:

Nobody can, or should, be baptized without their permission and without acceptance of what it means to them.

What the LDS' are doing does not, in my opinion, hold any valididty at all and your relatives and, indeed, all Jewish people who have passed will never have any connection with them.

Probably hard to ignore by the Jewish people, but what else could be done?

Do the LDS' baptize in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit? If so, I don't see how they could baptize a Jew who does not accept Jesus as the son of God.


Intrepid, other than Baptists who believe in adult baptism, infants and children are baptized into the chosen faith of their parents without any concept of religion whatsoever. In this case, it is LDS family members requesting that their Jewish ancestry be wiped out. I know you're agreeing with the position that these baptisms are wrong, but the statement you made contradicts most Christian baptismal practices.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Wed 12 Nov, 2008 03:12 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

Nobody can, or should, be baptized without their permission and without acceptance of what it means to them.

What the LDS' are doing does not, in my opinion, hold any valididty at all and your relatives and, indeed, all Jewish people who have passed will never have any connection with them.

Probably hard to ignore by the Jewish people, but what else could be done?

Do the LDS' baptize in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit? If so, I don't see how they could baptize a Jew who does not accept Jesus as the son of God.


Intrepid, other than Baptists who believe in adult baptism, infants and children are baptized into the chosen faith of their parents without any concept of religion whatsoever. In this case, it is LDS family members requesting that their Jewish ancestry be wiped out. I know you're agreeing with the position that these baptisms are wrong, but the statement you made contradicts most Christian baptismal practices.


I don't think it contradicts what I am say. I am a Christian and yes, children are also baptized in my faith without them even knowing about it. However, they are confirmed at age 13 when they make their own decisions. The baptism only means anything if they accept it when they are old enough to understand.

What the LDS' are doing does not account for acceptance.
jespah
 
  1  
Wed 12 Nov, 2008 04:44 pm
@Intrepid,
Thank you very much for understanding what I'm talking about.
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 12 Nov, 2008 06:08 pm
@Intrepid,
A contention that a 13 year old child is sufficiently intellectually sophisticated to understand what the rite of confirmation means, or sufficiently independent of thought to choose to actually refuse to participate is ludicrous. You spend more than a decade indoctrinating the child, and then claim that the child is making a free and informed choice? Please . . .
Intrepid
 
  1  
Wed 12 Nov, 2008 09:07 pm
@Setanta,
Some adults do not have sufficient independent thought to make simple informed decisions. The fact that you think 13 year olds are dolts does not, of necessity, prove it to be so. I am sure that you would receive forceful rebuttal from said "children".

My point, if you would take the time to absorb it rather than simply find something to put your own brand of contempt into, is that once a child has what many people would consider to be more than a few brain cells they can make a decision to continue in their faith.

Of course this may change in later years, but that is again their choice and decision. A baptism without consent and acceptance is not worth the water that was used to perform it.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Wed 12 Nov, 2008 09:09 pm
@jespah,
jespah wrote:

Thank you very much for understanding what I'm talking about.


You are quite welcome. I do understand, regardless of how foolish it may seem to some (Setanta, for instance)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 12 Nov, 2008 10:28 pm
I have sent a letter to the Mormon church people inquiring if I might be given a list of the names of male Mormons who have passed away this year so that I might give each of them a symbolic ritual bris. I'm waiting now for those names which should come any day.
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Wed 12 Nov, 2008 11:09 pm
@blatham,
Quote:
I have sent a letter to the Mormon church people inquiring if I might be given a list of the names of male Mormons who have passed away this year so that I might give each of them a symbolic ritual bris. I'm waiting now for those names which should come any day.


I do hope you're not holding your breath.

Btw, while visiting Salt Lake City a few years ago I had the privilege [?] of being shown the LDS's geneology project in operation. Vast underground work-rooms with rows and rows of computers on-line, all collecting, sorting and pigeon-holeing data. Printouts bound in easily readable volumes. Very impressive. To what end, I know not. But impressive nonetheless.
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 12:28 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
hellish experiences were reported by 2 classifications:
atheists and suicides.


And the quotes they received from those atheists and suicides that stayed dead? Were they consistent with those? And the control group?

No it don't - I just checked this site - in terms of 'Distressing NDEs' it says that:

Quote:
distressing NDEs seem to occur about equally to people of both genders and of all ages, educational levels, socioeconomic levels, sexual orientations, spiritual beliefs, religious affiliations, and life experiences
.

Suicide?
Quote:
suicide attempters who had an NDE are much less likely to try again. They say they have learned that their lives have purpose. They see life as a gift. When they face hard times, they believe their job is to deal with the problem constructively. They see all life experiences as opportunities to deepen their ability to love and to increase their knowledge.


I am still having a bit of a chuckle here - 'Common After Effects' ('After death you may feel a nausea and headaches. If death occurs again, see your medical practictioner'). And the classic US-centric quote;
Quote:
support and interest groups have developed across North America and in countries elsewhere in the world


Other countries are found around the world? Amazing. How do they do it? And are these other countries somehow connected to 'More and more of our imports come from overseas.'?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 01:26 am
@blatham,
Quote:

I have sent a letter to the Mormon church people inquiring if
I might be given a list of the names of male Mormons who have
passed away this year so that I might give each of them
a symbolic ritual bris. I'm waiting now for those names which should come any day.

Well, u might be a little late,
in that Americans r routinely circumcised at birth and Utah is in America.
Maybe if u hang around in a maternity ward in Utah,
u might get your chance.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 01:50 am
@Mr Stillwater,
Yeah, my dead friend, Neil, told me that he died about 12 times
in the VA Hospital in Las Vegas. I confirmed this with his floor nurse.
It gave me an excuse to go and visit him in Las Vegas;
(I don 't need much excuse to go there).
I offered to spring for a memorial service,
if he 'd deliver the eulogy, since he knew his own life better than I did.

Unfortunately, he committed the blunder of dying again, at home,
in the absence of medical supervision; that did not work out as well.

There have been a lot of decedents who have told,
in some detail, of hellish experiences as atheists or suicides.
Your quote means that decedents' religions did not become a factor,
(tho there was one fire n brimstone Protestant minister
who changed his stridency to a more gentle form;
he said that: "I was surprized that God did not care about my theology")
but atheists have complained of a lot of problems.

Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 02:49 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Unfortunately, he committed the blunder of dying again, at home,
in the absence of medical supervision; that did not work out as well.


I detect some black humour here....... there may be hope for you yet Wink



You can't be 'sorta dead' - if you are alive, then you have missed out on the whole point of death (so to speak). There are people who have been resuscitated after suffering a trauma that stopped certain functions such as heart beat and breathing. The cessation of activity in the parts of the brain that monitor and control those functions would lead to a permanent conditon we'd consider 'death'. No-one has survived. No-one has presented with total brain death and somehow 'revived' - there is a point were life ends and decay begins.

On the site you linked to there were no such stories - second hand or otherwise - to confirm or deny this. They crap on about the 'spiritual', but that isn't something quantifiable (it weighs exactly 21 grams!). Dead is dead, we'll all end up that way. Some of us just went a little too close for comfort - billions more never came back.



So - how would you circumcise the dead if some LDS nutter decided that it was a requirement to Paradise?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 03:19 am
@Mr Stillwater,
Quote:

You can't be 'sorta dead'

Yes, u can 't; death seems to be an illusion/fraud.

Quote:
if you are alive,
then you have missed out on the whole point of death (so to speak).

Yes; see above,
however, the information appears to indicate
that the real u is your living, conscious mind,
as distinct from your material flesh n bones.


Quote:

There are people who have been resuscitated after suffering
a trauma that stopped certain functions such as heart beat and breathing.

We know that.



Quote:

The cessation of activity in the parts of the brain that monitor
and control those functions would lead to a permanent conditon we'd consider 'death'.

U have proof of this ?


Quote:
No-one has presented with total brain death and somehow 'revived'

U have evidence of this ?


Quote:

Dead is dead, we'll all end up that way. Some of us just went
a little too close for comfort - billions more never came back.

I suspect that u put too much blind faith in alleged "death";
I remain skeptical.


Quote:
billions more never came back.

That does not mean that thay were dead;
just that their material, fleshly bodies were defunct.

If a man 's car wears out and he starts walking,
do u accuse him of being "dead" ?



Quote:

how would you circumcise the dead
if some LDS nutter decided that it was a requirement to Paradise?

Your question is falsely predicated.
I woud not; in point of fact, I have never circumcised anyone,
not even if he is dead. No one has ever requested this service of me.





David
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 05:17 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
If a man 's car wears out and he starts walking, do u accuse him of being "dead" ?


If I shoot him in the head and drive his car - can I argue that he's 'alive' when the police find me?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 06:25 am
@Mr Stillwater,
Yes,
but there can be problems with that,
regardless of his being alive and in good spirit.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 06:58 am
@Merry Andrew,
Quote:
I do hope you're not holding your breath.

Btw, while visiting Salt Lake City a few years ago I had the privilege [?] of being shown the LDS's geneology project in operation. Vast underground work-rooms with rows and rows of computers on-line, all collecting, sorting and pigeon-holeing data. Printouts bound in easily readable volumes. Very impressive. To what end, I know not. But impressive nonetheless.


You obscene bastard!

But aside from that, the geneology project which you refer to (the New Yorker had a great piece on this about fifteen years ago...one cool datum which comes to mind...no one living on earth is any more than a twentieth cousin of anyone else) has as its end the saving of souls.
Quote:
One of the core tenets of Mormon faith is that the dead can be baptized into the faith after their passing. Baptism of the dead evolved from the beliefs that baptism is necessary for salvation and that the family unit can continue to exist together beyond mortal life if all members are baptized.
http://www.pbs.org/mormons/etc/genealogy.html

Thus the present problem, you obscene bastard!
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 07:02 am
@blatham,
I am about decided to visit cemeteries for the purpose of placing Darwinian fishes. To de-save everyone.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 07:08 am
@edgarblythe,
from what ?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 07:17 am
@Mr Stillwater,
By the by, I died several years ago. Cause of death was probably fried chicken. In my case, this natural process of late night ganga-fuelled sex > heart attack > cannonshot to the arms of God was unfortunately stymied by a tangle of jumper cables. Now, people will tell you that this is a wonderful thing...a second chance, a reminder of blessings here and there, a reinvigoration from that breath of fresh godxygen, etceteras. Personally, upon my return, I was just about exactly as bored as I had been before.
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 13 Nov, 2008 07:24 am
@edgarblythe,
Good plan! But I'd play it safe and toss in a star and crescent symbol as well.
0 Replies
 
 

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