16
   

I'm white, so are you....or not.

 
 
dyslexia
 
  2  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 10:43 am
segue;
i grew up in the middle east, as a child with my friends (very dark africans/various shades of browns (Indian/Chinese/Greek/Arabian/Italian/Eastern European/Brits etc.) skin colour was never noted but food and language was. When I came to the USA and enrolled in High School I had to fill out a form, one questione I came to was Race with the options of "black" "white" "asian" "native american" etc. I had no idea how to answer so the lady in the office laughed and said "honey, you're a white boy" that was how I discovered I was "white." I was 15 yrs old.
chai2
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 10:47 am
@chai2,
Ok, I finally figured out how to express my slight annoyance at the comment the black woman with light father/dark mother made about obama only being able to get where he is because, according to her, he's light skinned.

What if a Jew who happened to look like a WASP, but had the last name of Rosenberg, obtained an important position? Would the Jewish community say "he only got that job because he looks like a WASP?" Let's say this was, oh...50 years ago.

Well, I don't know if they would, but I would hope not. If someone did say that, I would hope they would get the response "So, you're complaining?"

Here's a clip from the Tracy Ulman Show where Harry and Fern Rosenthal meet their future in-laws, the Levines....move up to minute 4 to view. It's one of my favorites from that show. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbE22uzOhy4

I wonder what this black woman was meaning with this comment? Would she have been happier the black man is going to be our next president was ebony black? Like Obama isn't enough of a huge breaking of barriers?

I'm sure there's an element of showing some bigoted whites that he's not "dangerous" by posing with his white grandermother....but then again, I'm sure there's lots of pictures of him and his mom, grandmother and other relatives from his mothers side of the family in his photo albums. It is his grandma after all, even though she's white, and she's every bit his grandmother as the one from his fathers side. I don't know if that grandma is alive, but would such a fuss be made if he posed for a picture with her?


CalamityJane
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 10:53 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Using CJane's example of Germany, saying Anna married a Greek would be code (in some families) for letting people know that Anna's husband is darker-skinned.


Yes certainly! Germany is not free of racism.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 11:05 am
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:

Ok, I finally figured out how to express my slight annoyance at the comment the black woman with light father/dark mother made about obama only being able to get where he is because, according to her, he's light skinned.


Chai, don't you think this stems from the old stigma that blacks were
considered inferior to whites? From a blacks standpoint: the lighter skinned
a person is the whiter he's become thus entering the "superior" population?
Black people would see a light skinned person not as black, but white people would.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 11:06 am
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
What if a Jew who happened to look like a WASP, but had the last name of Rosenberg, obtained an important position? Would the Jewish community say "he only got that job because he looks like a WASP?" Let's say this was, oh...50 years ago.

Well, I don't know if they would, but I would hope not.


Yes, they did, and they still do in some cases (I have heard it at work within the last 5 years).

Why did/do people with Jewish-sounding names anglicize them? That's happened with a colleague within the past 2 years. R felt her name was "too obviously ethnic" and holding her back.

~~~

My friend The Empress is quite a dark-skinned black woman. She has told me that Senator Obama wouldn't have had a chance to get the nomination if he'd been a 'real black'. She doesn't feel he has African features or colouring.

~~~

Digression. I've posted about it before, but the documentary covering Senator Obama's travel to Africa re HIV/AIDS, and featuring his very brief visit to his African grandmother, was really excellent.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 11:45 am
@CalamityJane,
well cj, I don't think either of us can answer that, since we've only lived the white experience.

However, I would hope a black person wouldn't see a light skinned black as superior, or would no longer look at them with jealously (maybe) since they would have an easier time.

Merry Andrew brought up the 1960's before. For me, those days are long gone. I'm only speaking for myself. So, without forgeting those times, when I hear them brought up as if it still was the 60's, I think to myself that dwelling on those days, and not, having learned the lesson, move forward, is holding people back. In this case, I think if you're not moving foward, you are moving back.

fbazer brought up the fact when slavery ended in SA, segregation wasn't installed....they learned the lesson and moved forward. If we keep referring back to the 60's has if we were still back then, than that's where we will stay.

The black woman, bringing up her light father/dark mother....I don't know what purpose that served other than to tell herself there have been no changes. If you act like there have been no changes, there won't be. Instead of dwelling on the fact that she thinks obama is light skinned, letting that hold her back, why not move forward knowing this is a huge step?

Honestly? Swear to God and Honor Bright? Except when it's brought up, I don't think of Obama's color at all. When he first came on the scene I thought "wow, I wonder what's going to happen?"...then once I learned about him, and realized he was the candidate I wanted to support, all that color stuff became a non issue completely....I wonder why the woman I've mentioned doesn't feel that...

Good Hair/Bad Hair.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtfEmTHeYNw&feature=related
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 12:42 pm
@shewolfnm,
shewolfnm wrote:
When i was young, many black women would comment on how I was lucky for being "hi'h yell-ah" ...


Chai, do you think this is too far back to still be relevant?

~~~
~~~

What I see here (real-life, not the thread) is several types of discrimination within the black communities in Toronto.

Among recent African immigrants to Canada, there is discrimination against lighter-skinned people of African heritage whose families left Africa generations ago. The lighter-skinned people are not considered Afro-Canadian by this group.

In the group of 'black' immigrants to Canada who came from the Caribbean, it is generally considered preferable to be lighter-skinned, to date a lighter-skinned person, to marry a lighter-skinned person, to have lighter-skinned babies. This came up recently with a friend who was distressed that her new baby favoured her husband, who is darker and more clearly of African descent. C worries that this will limit Baby C's opportunities, in comparison to her brothers, who are lighter-skinned and could be perhaps seen as being South Asian vs Caribbean black. It's an issue for her.

Then there is the community of black Canadians whose families came to Canada at the time of the Underground Railroad. They are not all fully accepting of the more recent black immigrants. The issue with this group seems to be more about culture than skin colour.

~~~

This article, from a couple of years ago, was interesting read.

http://nymag.com/movies/profiles/19144/index1.html
Quote:
Spike Lee, along with his wife, Tonya Lewis, is wealthy, hugely successful, at the top of W.E.B. DuBois’s “Talented Tenth” of black society in America.


I learned a lot about the blackristocracy reading that. I went on to read some of the books referred to, then some other literature about the Boules.

It's about community/culture, and sometimes that means skin colour.

Quote:
The last thing Lillian and George Lewis wanted was for their daughter Tonya to marry “an entertainment type,” she says. “Philip Morris is a conservative corporation,” and it didn’t help that “Spike is mum.” Anyone who finds this confusing and imagines that Tonya Lewis was marrying up when she wed the famous director Spike Lee is not initiated in the mores of African-American society.

“It’s become more of a meritocracy in the last fifteen years or so, but prior to that, it was really about your family history,” says E.T. Williams, a retired real- estate investor and art collector who was in George Lewis’s chapter of the Boulés and comes from an African-American family that has been prosperous"and, by the way, free"since the late 1700s. Williams is an acquaintance of Spike and Tonya Lewis Lee’s; he last saw them for lunch in Jamaica, when he and his wife, Auldlyn, were staying at the Ritz- Carlton and the Lees were vacationing at the Half Moon. He has been on boards including MoMA, the Brooklyn Museum, and the Central Park Conservancy. He became close with Brooke Astor after she gave a lunch to introduce him to her vacation crowd on Dark Harbor off the coast of Maine.

Though E.T. Williams grew up in Brooklyn, he never met Spike Lee until after he’d married Tonya Lewis. Spike Lee’s family, says Williams, “wasn’t social … Put it that way. His father was professional, if I’m not mistaken"a nice, middle-class family.” Spike’s father, Bill Lee, is a jazz composer who scored several of his son’s early films. His mother was a teacher who died when Spike was a sophomore at Morehouse College in Atlanta, where he was a third- generation legacy. (Lee’s second film, School Daze, was a delirious musical about life at the prestigious black men’s school. There is a memorable song-and-dance number in which light- skinned black women call their darker-skinned rivals “jigaboos” and the dark- skinned women sing the retort “wannabes.”) The Lees were well-to-do, yes; Blackristocracy, no.


http://nymag.com/movies/profiles/spikelee060814_2_198.jpg
Quote:
Within the Blackristocracy, Lee’s indignation is largely regarded as righteous, not embarrassing. The black upper class is still black: Most members have experienced racism at some point in their lives; most recognize it in action in their country all the time. “It’s very much understood,” says E.T. Williams. “We’re all going through it. The historian John Hope Franklin, now an emeritus at Duke, belonged to the Cosmos Club in Washington, D.C., and he had a group coming to celebrate his 85th or 90th birthday. This white lady came up to him and handed him her glass and said, ‘Would you take this?’ And he said, ‘No, madam. If you look, you’ll see the people who work here are in uniform.’ So we can all understand his feelings.”

In the Blackristocracy, Lee’s interest in inequity is not perceived as obsessive: It’s seen as responsible. “If one just starts off with W.E.B. DuBois’s focus on the Talented Tenth, there was always a view that that group had the obligation to help society, and that clearly is a hallmark of Spike"and Tonya,” says Chenault.
0 Replies
 
Jenifer Johnson
 
  -1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 12:56 pm
@Jenifer Johnson,
There are two issues here, first the concept of being born into a race is false, and the second issue is, no one has the right to force one's value system on to another. Both are wrong and criminal.

An individual can not racially discriminate because 1) there is no such thing as the concept of race, 2) discriminate is a function of choice (no matter what choice one makes, they have to discriminate against all other choices).

Racism can only be achieved by forcing one's value system onto another politically, by making laws in the context of race.

Here are examples of racism:
The Jim Crow law was institutionalized racism of forced segregation/rejection.
The Civil Rights act is institutionalized racism of forced assimilation/acceptance.
Affirmative action law is nothing more than a political ploy to gain a differential advantage based on human value over another person.

Any law that forces another's choice, is a violation of their individual rights and sovereignty, making it criminal.

We live in a criminal society. Europe is the most criminal, because they have laws they consider as thought crimes, which violate one's individual freedom of thought.
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 01:13 pm
@Jenifer Johnson,
Curious, are you a libertarian or an anarchist?

Are you a follower of Ayn Rand and her Objectivism?

BBB
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 01:29 pm
@Jenifer Johnson,
Jenifer Johnson wrote:

There are two issues here, first the concept of being born into a race is false

Really. I always thought that "race" defines people who share the same
hereditary components and if you're not born into it how else do you
define "race", Jennifer?

Quote:
An individual can not racially discriminate because 1) there is no such thing as the concept of race

Probably in your mind there is no concept of race, but that's rather fictional that factual. Tell me Jennifer, how do you define the biological difference
between a black and white person, both born in the U.S.?

Quote:
Here are examples of racism:
The Jim Crow law was institutionalized racism of forced segregation/rejection.

I definitely agree with this statement!

Quote:
Affirmative action law is nothing more than a political ploy to gain a differential advantage based on human value over another person.

There is nothing wrong in helping the disadvantaged ones and minority
groups who otherwise would struggle to achieve what non-minority groups
take for granted.

Quote:
Europe is the most criminal, because they have laws they consider as thought crimes, which violate one's individual freedom of thought.

Do tell, Jennifer! How can you prohibit the freedom of thoughts?
Does Europe have special mind readers to enforce such laws?
dyslexia
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 01:30 pm
@CalamityJane,
man I wish we still had pm's
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 01:42 pm
@dyslexia,
You can email me, dys - ossobuco has my email address.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 01:44 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

You can email me, dys - ossobuco has my email address.
will do
0 Replies
 
Jenifer Johnson
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 02:04 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Hi BBB,

Neither. I don't behold to any ideology. There are only two states of being, true and false. As a truth seeker, truth is the only thing that is important.
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 02:07 pm
@Jenifer Johnson,
All black and white thinking, no gray areas at all?

BBB
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 02:27 pm
@chai2,
Of course we only have your word to go by as far as the ethnic origins of anyone in those photographs are concerned. Or whether they were really suntanned at the time those pics were taken.

No idea of posting a link to your sources, how come?
High Seas
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 02:30 pm
@dyslexia,
The funny thing is that in the US we're called "Caucasian", while in all of Europe (including Russia) the peoples of the Caucasus are considered "colored", like everybody else in the Near East (Turkey, Caucasus, Middle East).
Jenifer Johnson
 
  0  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 02:37 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane,

Obama is a walking dichotomy showing the fallacy of being born into one race. He is living proof that the concept of race is false. Take two people that you claim are of different races, then tell me what the race of their offspring would be. There are a number of participants to this thread that have already showed the fallacy of being born into one race. What will it take for you to quit lying to yourself? Lying is criminality, even to yourself!

And as for minorities, everyone is a minority to someone else's group think!

Look into the trial of Dr. Fredrick Toben.
0 Replies
 
Jenifer Johnson
 
  -1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 02:53 pm
@CalamityJane,
Also CalamityJane, I noticed how you had the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that forced segregation /rejection was wrong, but lacked intellectual honesty to acknowledge that forced assimilation/acceptance was wrong.

Forced assimilation/acceptance is even more repugnant than forced segregation/rejection, because it is the forced acceptance of the lowest common denominator.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Sat 25 Oct, 2008 03:20 pm
@High Seas,
Because I just picked the pictures off of google images high seas.

ehbeth, interesting article.
 

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