I'm white, so are you....or not.

@chai2,

huh?

Cjane doesn't always present europe as perfetto. She's talking about her experience. You are talking about yours, chai.
I'm madly happy about much of the US (see my Driving 101 thread) and I'm famous for some kind of blindasabat italophilia, a concept I foster for the enjoyment of it. (Italy is a complicated mess, now and historically, but it fascinates me, and in many ways, has done much pretty well, besides the mess.)

I haven't responded yet on this thread, re color; I presume I will. Thinking about it, as I have some conflicts. I mostly agree with cjane re the paperwork aspect, but I've social concerns re ramifications in the US. I'm thinking about my answers with your questions too, re who calls whom 'what'.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

That still doesn't address my question re countries who say they don't identify with their color, but marry that way.

In this respect they don't seem to be any different than the U.S. they say they are, but their actions don't back it up.

This isn't the 1960's and prior. I'm talking about today, someone who is between let's say 20 and 35.

People who grew up with a white/black parentage today.....2008...why don't they say they are white? They are every bit as white as they are black, more likely even more white than black, since many have a white ancestor here or there.

I'll start with an easy answer to this one, anecdotal but solid to me. My niece's mother was from western Africa, and her father is my husband's brother, an american of irish descent. The whole urban culture had her pegged early as black. She's sharp - and is as a young adult now interested in people who she calls 'mixed'. She choreographs hip hop and listens to classical without rolling her eyes.. is probably more interested initially in people that are not just "black" or "white" but part this or that - fascinated by the complication. At least she was last time we talked for days.

1 Reply

@chai2,

chai2,

What you have identified is the fallacy of the concept of being born into a race.

There is no such thing as a "white person or a black person", because everyone is born a uniquely distinct individual.

The concept of race is a tool used in the politics of human value devised to create a collectivist mentality for group control. To utilize this control, they use the perception from within the group and from outside the group.

Within the group, they create an idea of born into a race, which from an individual perspective establishes a bond between its members.

Outside the group, they create an idea of victimology, because from a group perspective, the group with the least perceived value has the moral authority. Example: young versus old, straight versus gay, white versus black, man versus woman, beautiful versus ugly, rich versus poor, intelligent versus stupid, capable versus disabled, where the group with the least perceived value establishes a false perception of moral authority.

The concept of race is false, so the tactics are used in order to achieve illegitimate control over another. It boils down the one's claiming racism are perpetrating criminality, because they are presenting a fraud.

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@ossobuco,

I have to search the thread - someone addressed this well, that people undergoing severe discrimination tend to group identify.

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@Jenifer Johnson,

Well, that's a ball of wax, Jenifer Johnson - though almost amusing.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

0ossobuco : Well, that's a ball of wax, Jenifer Johnson - though almost amusing.

What part of the fraud (concept of race) are you having trouble dealing with?

1 Reply

@Jenifer Johnson,

I'll address your post tomorrow.

Race is indeed only a concept, long discussed by the people clued into anthropology on a2k. But cultural 'racism' is not just a concept.

For your homework, look up 'fraud'.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

For your homework, what part of the deception of the politics of human value to gain differential advantage, are you having trouble dealing with?

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@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

chai2 wrote:
cj seemed to be saying race wasn't an issue, since no one thinks about their color...never mind that almost everyone is white.

I think the fact that over 50% of black french people say they experience discrimination, and that it's getting worse, shows there is a problem.

I know this is a personal pet peeve of mine, but.....I don't dislike France, I wouldn't want to go there, but I don't dislike it....I don't want to go to anyplace in Europe other than Italy for a visit, for the art....however...

I don't ever hear anyone saying how great something is in the U.S. as compared to anyplace in Europe. We apparantly can't even make good chocolate, how can we live up to Europes way of life where people don't even notice the race of someone?

France is wonderful
Germany is wonderful
the US sucks.

That is definately not the topic of this thread, it just gets my goat that the comparison has to be brought up with the least amount of provocation.

So this is what's bothering you? Why don't you say so in the first place?
Most people would like to hear how things are run in different countries,
you aren't one of them - I got it, not once, not twice, but numerous times.

The only reason I make a comparison is because I can do so, having lived in more countries than one. You cannot make this comparison, so that's your problem not mine. If you don't like to hear another side to your coin, please state so in the beginning of your topic, so I can abstain.

This is how I have been reading it as well. It seems to have more to do with Chai's feeling of insecurity in the world than actual black and white issues. (no pun intended Smile

) Everything does not start and stop with the U.S.A.

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uh.....no, not at all insecure intrepid.....sorry to burst your bubble.

cj - yes I do want to know how things are in other countries....that's why I'm asking....

I didn't ask about forms where choices get ticked off.

I'm asking why people choose to call themselves a certain thing, when by appearance alone they could call themselves several, but they seem to choose the one society expects of them.

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@shewolfnm,

shewolfnm wrote:

You hear things about them identifying with their black culture. Well, you have just as much white culture in your DNA....why don't you acknowledge or ever talk about that?

Well.. what would a word BE for that person?

I personally only say one or the other myself
But that is mostly because I dont KNOW what to say that would include all races that I am part of.

I would need a word that simply says " my latest ancestors are black, cherokee and white"

Heinz 57. Mixed heritage.

The Scots, Irish and Welsh I have met (over there) are adamantly Scottish, Irish or Welsh, as opposed to British.

I say I'm Canadian and if someone pressed for my heritage, I say "British" because we are Scottish (primarily) and English.

As far as colour goes, it just doesn't come up in my life much. It's not an issue. We have many ethnic people here but it seems nobody (that I know, anyway) really gives it a thought. I haven't heard very many racial slurs but I would guess that that's just a function of where I personally live and who I hang with. I'm sure racism is alive and well in certain pockets of the Lower Mainland, but I don't live there, so I just don't hear it. And the only race-related violence we hear about stems primarily from gangs.

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@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

I can tell you what we don't have - and that was my point initially: we don't
have government forms, school and employment applications that require
for the applicant to write down the color of their skin. This is in my opinion
unique to the United States and until the U.S. has done away with it, color
will always be an issue.

Yeah, our forms ask for nationality, too (ancestry), not colour.

1 Reply

@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

I'm asking why people choose to call themselves a certain thing, when by appearance alone they could call themselves several, but they seem to choose the one society expects of them.

As I said before Chai, other countries don't have these choices as they're
asked for nationality only. In your entrance topic you have pictures of
a Greek girl and an Italian buy - both Europeans, so naturally one would
assume that you're looking also towards Europe to find an answer.

1 Reply

@Merry Andrew,

In the "Black" culture, it's called the "Brown Paper Bag" test I'm told by my Black friends.

BBB

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@CalamityJane,

How do you know they aren't greek/american, italian american cj? I certainly don't know.

I could have said the girl was in mississippi, and the boy from california, that might very well be.

It doesn't matter what country they were from, I was speaking of their shade of skin.

BBB - That's interesting.

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@chai2,

brown paper bag test

An actual test, along with the so-called ruler test in common use in the the early 1900s among upper class Black American societies and families to determine if a Black person was sufficiently white to gain admittance or acceptance. If your skin was darker than a brown paper bag, you did not merit inclusion. Thousands of Black institutions including the nation's most eminent Black fraternity -- Phi Alpha Phi, Howard Univiersity, and numerous church and civic groups all practiced this discriminiation. The practice has 19th Century antecedants with the Blue Blood Society and has not totally died out.

Zora Neal Hurston was the first well known writer to air this strange practice in a public. The practice is now nearly universally condemned (at least in public) as being an example of "colorism". Particularly cogent modern day critiques can be found in Kathy Russell's "The Color Complex", Tony Morrion's "The Bluest Eye" (an Ophrey Book Club choice) and Marita Golden's "Don't Play in the Sun." The best known send-up of the pactice, however, is Spike Lee's scathing and hilarious 1988 movie, "School Daze."
"Though the brown paper bag test is antiquated and frowned upon as a shameful moment in African-American history, the ideals behind the practice still lingers in the African-American community" -- Rivea Ruff, BlackCollegeView.Com

For more information:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brown+paper+bag+test

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

That very slightly ticked me off....like as if only black people can call themselves light or dark, and still choose the title of Black.

what is the benefit you see to calling yourself light or dark, or the "title of Black"?

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

How do you know they aren't greek/american, italian american cj? I certainly don't know.

I could have said the girl was in mississippi, and the boy from california, that might very well be.

It doesn't matter what country they were from, I was speaking of their shade of skin.

You see, this is exactly the point of difference between you, being American
and me, being European: I see their nationality and you see the shade of skin.

You wrote that the girl is Greek, and the guy is Italian, so I took that from
your text.

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@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

So when a German girl marries a Greek, no one
would comment the color of his skin even if it's darker

that's definitely not my experience of Germany. Skin colour is noted and commented on, and lighter skin is preferential to darker skin.

You wouldn't want people think there's Turkish blood being mixed into your family. It's still not acceptable to a lot of Germans.

~~~

Anecdotally, the most racist people I've ever been exposed to were the Japanese. A contract was taken out on a friend's life when he married a Japanese woman. Her father was incensed about the possible weakening of his blood line.

~~~

I've never heard the black/white terminology used quite the same way as in the U.S., but I've certainly heard people in other countries speak of other nations/nationalities with similar energy/disdain. It's racism/discrimination with slightly different labels attached. Using CJane's example of Germany, saying Anna married a Greek would be code (in some families) for letting people know that Anna's husband is darker-skinned.

1 Reply

@fbaezer,

Thank you for your posts, fbaezer.

0 Replies

I'm white, so are you....or not.

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