16
   

I'm white, so are you....or not.

 
 
chai2
 
  2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 02:21 pm
@chai2,
oh...and I certainly don't think we have more in common with South Africa than let's say Europe in that regard.

I knew a white woman from S. Africa fairly well...well enough to ask her about race relations. She was a very nice open person, so I was convinced that she would say something like that there is a big problem, but that individuals are toleratant. Kind of like how most people I've known view religion, a few are fanatics, most are "whatever you choose to believe or not is fine with me"

Anyway, I can't remember how the entire conversation developed. She could speak the language that many blacks speak down there...don't know the name of it...had a lot of clicks and stuff. Maybe I was asking her about how they divide people into groups like white....colored...black. Something I said about all of those groups being human made her look away...not in embarrassment, but annoyed like.

So I asked her...So, do you think blacks are humans?

She replied..."No, I don't"

Me: What about blacks that live here?

Her: No

I have never personally spoken to an american, no matter how bigoted they are who said they weren't human. Oh, I'm not naive, I know they are out there, and live and breed among us...but not to the extent as in South Africa.
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:28 pm
@chai2,
You hear things about them identifying with their black culture. Well, you have just as much white culture in your DNA....why don't you acknowledge or ever talk about that?


Well.. what would a word BE for that person?

I personally only say one or the other myself
But that is mostly because I dont KNOW what to say that would include all races that I am part of.

I would need a word that simply says " my latest ancestors are black, cherokee and white"

ebrown p
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 04:03 pm
@shewolfnm,
Is the point of this thread to judge how other people identify themselves?

First, Culture has nothing to do with DNA.

Second. There are lots of reasons that people choose to identify themselves with an ethnic identity.

- Ethnicity is about respecting and honoring the ways you are different. Do you go to Synagogue or Church. Do you speak English or Spanish in the Home. Do you use different words, or music or clothing.

Ethnicity is often positive... celebrating Hannukah or dancing Polka.

Ethnicity is also a response people feel that the ways they are different are under attack. This a part of the American expericence for many people.

Kids who need a way to explain why they are followed in stores are likely to call themselves "colored" or "black". People who see angry white people on TV ranting that people who speak their own language are "invaders" are likely to call themselves "Latino".

Someone with a white parent and a black parent who experiences being followed around in a store because of the color of their skin is likely to consider themselves black. It is a way to express the way that US society sometimes punishes differences.

But here is my question... There are many reasons that someone might choose to identify themselves with an ethnicity.

What is wrong with just accepting people as they present themselves?

chai2
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 05:26 pm
@shewolfnm,
The word right now that's used is "I'm Black"....but, they have every reason to say "I'm White" too.

but no one does.

0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 05:46 pm
@ebrown p,
I don't have to have one point to this thread ebrown.

This is a multi-subject thread.

I can call it, the "why did that woman choose to say her father was light, her mother dark, and the only reason Obama is where he is, is because he's light skinned thread." Which I don't agree with that anyway, my eyes see him physically as dark.

I can call it the "Why is always seems to come up at some point that Europe and/or the rest of the world is so advanced in these issues than the U.S. thread" No one has yet broached the question of why it's commonly accepted that in most other places no one pays attention to color, but goes by nationality, yet, when two people decide to marry in these advancd countries, it's not in proportion to the number of different people that in the lonely old US would call black or white?

I haven't brought up the subject of culture, or ethnicity....however, since people of different cultures and ethnicities often marry, why is it in other parts of the world this doesn't extend as far as including people who here would identify themselves as B or W?

Also, I have never indicated that is wasn' right to accept people as they present themselves.

I'm asking why?

According to your logic, a bi-racial kid who has never been followed around a store might very well call themselves white.....I don't think so.

This might be a shock, but white kids are followed around stores too, because, unbelievably, white people have been know to steal stuff too.

In truthfullnes, I'd like to here from CJ, since she brought it up.

CJ, when you are in Germany, if the people who would be considered black here comprised 15% of the German population, would 15% of those black people be married to whites?

If a country like Germany had a 50% white, 50% black population, would 50% of the white people be married to 50% of the black people?

If they truly do not see color, but only nationality, over a matter of just a few generations, that should be exactly what happens.

As I said, I'm leaving religion out of this, because that's an entire different subject....but, even if 25% of a population would not marry outside of their faith (and I think that's an overestimation), would still many mixed marriages.

fbaezer
 
  2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 05:53 pm
Cubans of all sorts are racially conscious.
But there's an important cultural difference as to who would be considered black or white.

In the US, you're 1/4 African, then you're black.

Mariah Carey, Halle Berry and even Derek Jeter are considered "black" by many, if not most.
I find that a little crazy.

In Cuba, you're 1/4 African, then you're white; you're 1/2 or 3/4 African, then you're mulatto. Only if all your ancestors were black, you're considered black.
My mother wouldn't think of Obama as black or white. She'd call him a mulatto. "Un mulatico", since he's not very big.

Some Cubans of African roots living in the US say now that Cuba's cultural policy of not considering that many "blacks" was key for stripping them of their African heritage. Funny that they didn't think the same way while in Cuba, where the saying went: "if you're white, you've got a profession; if you're mulatto, you've got a skill; if you're black, you've got nothing".

Another Cuban saying: "whoever has no Congo [trails], has Carabalí", meaning everybody has some African ancestor.
Or as my cousin said: "our greatgrandma, if she was not a mulatto, she surely did look like one".
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 06:08 pm
@chai2,
Fa Krissake, I'm talking about the historical similarities between the black experience in the USA and in South Africa. S. Africa had apartheid, we had institutionalized (and officially sanctioned) racial discrimination. As far as race relations, we have absolutely zilch in common with Europe where a black face was an extremely rare sight until after World War II and the breakup of the European colonial powers. I was born in Europe just prior to WW II. The first time I saw a 'person of color' was an American soldier.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 06:43 pm
@chai2,
Most people seem to identify with the colour of their father, regardless of the colour of the mother. At least in my experience.

I don't know if Canada is any different than the U.S. or any other country, but people marry who they fall in love with. You see married couples of all pigmentation and all nationalities. Maybe we are just more tolerant. I don't know.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 06:45 pm
@chai2,
Quote:
In truthfullnes, I'd like to here from CJ, since she brought it up.

CJ, when you are in Germany, if the people who would be considered black here comprised 15% of the German population, would 15% of those black people be married to whites?

If a country like Germany had a 50% white, 50% black population, would 50% of the white people be married to 50% of the black people?

If they truly do not see color, but only nationality, over a matter of just a few generations, that should be exactly what happens.

As I said, I'm leaving religion out of this, because that's an entire different subject....but, even if 25% of a population would not marry outside of their faith (and I think that's an overestimation), would still many mixed marriages.


I can't answer that question, Chai, as there isn't a 15 % or even 50 % black
population in Germany. Even hypothetically one cannot say if they would
marry each other if half of Germany was black.

For most of Europe, nationality is more important and the first question
would be: where are you from? Yes, the Greek are darker than the Swedes,
the Belgians and Dutch are colorless when compared to the Spaniards or
Italians, and the Brits - well we can compare them to Wonder bread. Many
Italians and Spaniards are married to Germans, Swedes, or Dutch. Opposites
attract, so why not. There are blacks married to whites, but in comparison
the black population in all of Europe is rather small, the shades of colors
are multifarious though.

I can tell you what we don't have - and that was my point initially: we don't
have government forms, school and employment applications that require
for the applicant to write down the color of their skin. This is in my opinion
unique to the United States and until the U.S. has done away with it, color
will always be an issue.

CalamityJane
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:06 pm
@chai2,
Quote:
I can call it the "Why is always seems to come up at some point that Europe and/or the rest of the world is so advanced in these issues than the U.S. thread" No one has yet broached the question of why it's commonly accepted that in most other places no one pays attention to color, but goes by nationality, yet, when two people decide to marry in these advancd countries, it's not in proportion to the number of different people that in the lonely old US would call black or white?


I did not say that Europe is more advanced than the U.S. they merely have a different approach to color and pay more attention to nationality, as they live
in such close proximity to many different countries. It is not so a matter of black and white as of nationality. So when a German girl marries a Greek, no one
would comment the color of his skin even if it's darker, they very well would say though: Anna married a Greek! You understand the different point I wanted to make?
fbaezer
 
  2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:17 pm
@chai2,
I'd go farther out, chai2.

Why, would you say, do most Latin American peoples come "in all shades"?
Couldn't it be that they have a long history, dating back to centuries, of inter-racial marriage?
Even in those countries, like Cuba or Brazil where there once was slavery, and some traces of racism persist, racial mixture is much more common than in the US.
Could this be explained by the fact that, after slavery was abolished, there were no attempts of racial segregation.

As near as 1968, the Wallace-LeMay ballot won 4 states in the Presidential election. Where else would a similar thing happen?
chai2
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:25 pm
@CalamityJane,
I did a little research before coming back on here cj.

about 1/2 of 1% of the population of germany is black. Of course people don't identify themselves with a particular ethnic group. with .5% black, less than 2.5% Turks, and I would think and even less population of let's say Asians than blacks, you are by the large made up entirely of Europeans....white people.

No wonder there's no race problem, there isn't enough diversity to notice.

Another factoid I picked up re France. There are no official records kept, but it's estimated that the back population is about 6million, about 9.5%.
Of this 6 million, in 2007 53% of them said they were victims of discrimination, as far as housing, jobs, health care, etc, and that 30 some percent said that in the last year it had gotten worse.

In France, unless I'm mistaken in my reading, there was recently a push to include filling out your ethnic background, so the government can track immgration, and births from immigrants later.

I believe I read something that great britian has statistics, and as we all know, there are no race issues there.

Bottom line to your comments CJ, is that the U.S. is not unique is racial problems. If it's not as apparant in Germany, it because even though there are people from many different countries, and of many hues, they are almost all under the umbrella of white.

Sorry, but Europe ain't all that.
littlek
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:32 pm
@chai2,
Chai, you're saying that there are no race issues in Europe? Seriously?

As for Obama saying he's black, or not, depending on the situation - well, that's politics (imo). For all of US history, if you had any black blood (documented), you were considered black. I am not surprised that he identifies with being black because of that one reason alone - everyone else sees him as being black. As for him being shown in ads with his all-white family, well, that is a little different. While that is indeed his family, I believe he is trying to allay fears about this ridiculous fear that he will somehow be on the black side of the issue and not on the white side of the issue. Don't laugh, I've heard people worry about this.

NPR has a good series about white and black voters. Very insightful.
chai2
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:33 pm
@fbaezer,
If this was really true fbaezer, they only color of latin american people would be uniform light brown.

Why do americans who consider themselves white come in all shades? I'm pale, my neighbor is darker.

anyway, I'm still musing why the black woman felt the need to bring up the skin tones of her mom/dad/obama....I mean, if a white person did that, they'd be racist.

I think it's a hoot that some people are saying obama is playing up his whiteness by posing with pictures of his grandmother.

When McCain appears in a picture with his daughter, is it to show everyone how how Indian he is?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:38 pm
chai2 wrote:
I haven't brought up the subject of culture, or ethnicity....

But you did. You said that, "You hear things about them identifying with their black culture. Well, you have just as much white culture in your DNA....why don't you acknowledge or ever talk about that?"

ebrown's response to this cannot be overstated:
Culture has nothing to do with DNA.

fbaezer, great posts.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:40 pm
@littlek,
no littlek, I was being extrememly sarcastic...sorry, forgot the rolly-eye emoticon.

cj seemed to be saying race wasn't an issue, since no one thinks about their color...never mind that almost everyone is white.

I think the fact that over 50% of black french people say they experience discrimination, and that it's getting worse, shows there is a problem.

I know this is a personal pet peeve of mine, but.....I don't dislike France, I wouldn't want to go there, but I don't dislike it....I don't want to go to anyplace in Europe other than Italy for a visit, for the art....however...

I don't ever hear anyone saying how great something is in the U.S. as compared to anyplace in Europe. We apparantly can't even make good chocolate, how can we live up to Europes way of life where people don't even notice the race of someone?

France is wonderful
Germany is wonderful
the US sucks.

That is definately not the topic of this thread, it just gets my goat that the comparison has to be brought up with the least amount of provocation.
chai2
 
  1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:43 pm
@littlek,
NPR has a good series about white and black voters. Very insightful.

Is that about the 15 people of different backgrounds?

That where I got the stuff about the black woman/dark father/light mother thing.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:52 pm
@chai2,
Chai, let's get back into history for a moment: before any African slaves came to America, they were set throughout Europe starting in the 15th century. Over
the centuries, blacks intermarried with whites and their offspring over these
time frames have blended nicely into the different countries in Europe, in some
more than others, thus the different shades of color.

Central and South Americans descended from Europe, Africa and American
Indians. Most of them intermarried between the different ethnic groups. I believe Brazil has the highest black African ancestors in all of South America.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:54 pm
Chai, My question is... what's wrong with just letting each person determine their identity (including ethnic identity) for themselves-- and then respecting it.

You are quite wrong that people with interracial (i.e. black/white) backgrounds always choose to be black. Different people deal with identity in different ways. I know many people who are interracial and choose to not follow the typical "black" culture.

I had an interracial family by by birth, and I have an interracial family by marriage. Ethnic identity is very important to some members of my family-- and to others, it doesn't matter at all. What's the big deal?

If some one feels that the want to live in an ethnic culture, and some one else doesn't... how is this anyone's business but their own?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Fri 24 Oct, 2008 07:57 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
cj seemed to be saying race wasn't an issue, since no one thinks about their color...never mind that almost everyone is white.

I think the fact that over 50% of black french people say they experience discrimination, and that it's getting worse, shows there is a problem.

I know this is a personal pet peeve of mine, but.....I don't dislike France, I wouldn't want to go there, but I don't dislike it....I don't want to go to anyplace in Europe other than Italy for a visit, for the art....however...

I don't ever hear anyone saying how great something is in the U.S. as compared to anyplace in Europe. We apparantly can't even make good chocolate, how can we live up to Europes way of life where people don't even notice the race of someone?

France is wonderful
Germany is wonderful
the US sucks.

That is definately not the topic of this thread, it just gets my goat that the comparison has to be brought up with the least amount of provocation.


So this is what's bothering you? Why don't you say so in the first place?
Most people would like to hear how things are run in different countries,
you aren't one of them - I got it, not once, not twice, but numerous times.

The only reason I make a comparison is because I can do so, having lived in more countries than one. You cannot make this comparison, so that's your problem not mine. If you don't like to hear another side to your coin, please state so in the beginning of your topic, so I can abstain.
 

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