6
   

Young guys try to read society's road map for behavior

 
 
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 01:03 am
Young guys try to read society's road map for behavior

Quote:
It's a rough road to manhood for young guys, who more than ever are finding themselves confounded and conflicted about what "masculinity" means.

Behavioral researchers say being a heterosexual male used to mean being macho, but guys today get mixed messages on all fronts as they navigate sex, drinking, friendships and the future.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 6 • Views: 1,187 • Replies: 16

 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 01:41 am
@Robert Gentel,
not aggressive, not submissive, assertive.

my mottoe for manhood and masculinity, hah.
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 01:42 am
@OGIONIK,
"My generation's 'dating etiquette' is now called sexual assault," he says. "What we used to think was typical office behavior is now sexual harassment."
0 Replies
 
Cliff Hanger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 07:25 am
@Robert Gentel,
I find it hard to believe men still have a probelm with treating women as "equals."

The 57 yr. old guy doesn't quite seem to believe his misfortune in the modern world?

Perhaps as these dinosaurs die out boys will truly be raised to treat women equally.
Cliff Hanger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 07:28 am
@Robert Gentel,
One thing that burns me about the title of the article is why are people so conformist? Society's road map? I guess we will perpectually be living in the 1950s.

In other words-- no one wants to think for themselves. They rely on others to provide them with instructions.

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 07:40 am
@Robert Gentel,
In my earliest childhood, I was given to believe by the kids in my neighborhood,
that masculinity was being strong n brave, in word n deed.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 07:45 am
@Cliff Hanger,
Quote:

I find it hard to believe men still have a probelm with treating women as "equals."

It is a fact,
that no one is equal to anyone else; not even identical twins are =

U can, u shoud and u probably WILL relate to each citizen INDIVIDUALLY.





David
Cliff Hanger
 
  3  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 09:05 am
@OmSigDAVID,
I put the word equals in quotation marks intentionally.
OGIONIK
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 12:10 pm
@Cliff Hanger,
funny, i never got anywhere treating women, well as equal, but i have always believed taking charge, leading, i pick the movie, etc, or else it seems like they are just not interested

i think women like a man who takes charge, takes the lead, but i think they like having a say, choosing whether or not they want to follow...
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 12:27 pm
In their early 20s, "around relationships and around careers, women seem more focused and task-oriented and have a better-defined life plan than the men do," Kimmel says. He worries that "that leads men to look more irresponsible or slackerly."

That's not true, he adds: "They just haven't figured out what they have to do to get on track."


A lot of men in their 20's haven't even figured out there is a track.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 02:56 pm
There was an essay on this subject in The New York Times on January 9, 1994.
Quote:
What Do Men Want? A Reading List For the Male Identity Crisis
By RICHARD A. SHWEDER

THE finger of feminist accusation has been pointed at many different parts of the male anatomy, but the favorite objects of scorn are man's robotic brain, his granite heart and that thing between his legs. Men are defective: brutal, competitive, exploitative, insensitive, disconnected from meaningful social relationships, out of touch with their feelings and oblivious to things they do not want to hear. It is impossible to get them to do housework, even when they are unemployed. Why not simply replace the unit? They just lie around and make noise. Feeding them is an act of charity. Or so the indictment goes.

Recently some oblivious insensitive men have begun to notice that feminists don't like them. A few have even made New Year's resolutions to reinvent themselves into new males. A crisis literature on male identity has burst onto the scene, featuring titles like "The End of Manhood," "Myths of Masculinity," "Not Guilty" and "Why Men Hate Women." Men, largely white, middle-class, middle-aged men, M.D.'s and Ph.D.'s, storytellers and drumbeaters, camp counselors and boys' school teachers, members of "Hairy-Chested Men's Groups" and former gang members, fire walkers and holistic healers are writing earnest, heartfelt, even sentimental books about what it means to be a man, with all sorts of heroic recommendations about how to become one. Sticks and stones may break your bones, but when it comes to male-bashing (or defending) it is words that sell.

I have just read a dozen books from the male identity crisis literature. The genre emerged in the late 1980's, a long-delayed response to 20 years of feminist critique. It gained some notoriety in 1990 with the publication of "Iron John: A Book About Men," Robert Bly's antidote to masculine soul loss. The success of Mr. Bly's book of Wild Man writings (62 weeks on the New York Times hard-cover best-seller list) virtually guaranteed that bass and tenor voices would soon appear on the gender studies stage. Oblivious males generally become alert when there is a chance to profit from a crisis.

Unlike much of the feminist literature, which is unified by its sense of moral outrage over the historical subordination and exploitation of women by men, the men's crisis literature is unified by a sense of ontological anxiety: in a post-modern world lacking clear-cut borders and distinctions, it has become hard to know what it means to be a man and even harder to feel good about being one.

The unity in both literatures is more apparent than real. After a couple of exciting decades of internecine warfare, the women's movement has lost its ruby slippers. Feminist discourse is now fractured in so many ways that the specific implications of being a feminist are far from clear. There are ideological fault lines dividing liberal feminists (who argue that men and women are essentially alike), ecological feminists and goddess worshipers (who argue that men and women are essentially different and that women should be free to cultivate and take advantage of their femininity) and deconstructive feminists (who argue that nothing is essentially anything and everything is essentially accidental). Not to be outdone, the men's crisis literature has promoted so many different kinds of voices in only three years that the barbaric phrase "speaking as a 'masculist' " has in record time lost any determinate meaning.

There are writers who embrace one version or another of feminist critique. Men are incomplete. Self-sufficiency is not tenable. Forget the Marlboro man. Let's get in touch with our feelings and get reconnected in dense relationships. Having gone to school on feminist denunciations of patriarchy, writers like William G. Doty, a professor of humanities at the University of Alabama, in MYTHS OF MASCULINITY (Crossroad, $24.95), and R. William Betcher and William S. Pollack, a psychiatrist and a psychologist, respectively, at McLean Hospital and Harvard Medical School and co-authors of IN A TIME OF FALLEN HEROES: The Re-Creation of Masculinity (Atheneum, $22.50), offer us nuanced views about ways, as Mr. Doty puts it, to change the "shapes of masculinity" for the better.

THE END OF MANHOOD: A Book for Men of Conscience (Dutton, $21) actually recommends we bring manhood to an end. Its author, John Stoltenberg, a writer in New York and a co-founder of Men Against Pornography, argues that the essential self, the authentic self, the really real self has no genitals. The alternative view, argued in BOYS WILL BE MEN: Masculinity in Troubled Times (Paul S. Eriksson, $19.95), by Richard A. Hawley, headmaster of University School in Cleveland, is that gender cuts very deep into the soul. That, one might suspect, is why even the gods have males and females.

Other writers huff and puff and posture defiantly at the perilous feminist horde. One such is David Thomas, the former editor of Punch magazine in England, in NOT GUILTY: The Case in Defense of Men (Morrow, $20). Another is Warren Farrell, a former board member of the National Organization for Women who has had a change of heart, in THE MYTH OF MALE POWER: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex (Simon & Schuster, $23). They defend the flag of manhood, arguing from example that it is women who freeload on society and men who should be complaining. Have you heard, as Mr. Thomas asserts, that male models are underpaid, and that (according to Mr. Farrell) more men may be raped each year than women (it happens a lot in prisons)? And why should men be the ones who register for the draft? These authors want to stand toe to toe with their rivals, eager to trade indignation for indignation, injustice for injustice, and are desperate to keep score. They seem convinced that feminists and other high-status women will only be turned on by men who can beat them in arguments.

SOME writers respond to the feminist finger of accusation by suggesting that there really are things of value in men but they are all hidden from view. Robert Moore, a professor of psychology and religion at the Chicago Theological Seminary, and Douglas Gillette, a "mythologist" and leader of men's therapy groups, suggest in THE LOVER WITHIN: Accessing the Lover in the Male Psyche (Morrow, $25) that the really good things have been locked up in some Jungian archetype (a sensitive lover, a spiritual warrior) but that they can be released by pressing the right buttons. According to Michael Sky, a holistic healer, teacher and fire-walking instructor who leads workshops in the United States and Japan and is the author of SEXUAL PEACE: Beyond the Dominator Virus (Bear & Company, paper, $10.95), certain deep breathing exercises are highly recommended.

Others suggest that men are closely related to the divinities. If men gather together in a pride, honor their ancestral spirits, tell the right stories, beat the right drums and expose the right scars -- their bruised egos and symbolic wounds -- there will spring from the brow some godlet or hero, a Dionysus, an Odysseus, a King David, to lift the modern male out of gender confusion and into ontological certainty. Three hundred years into the Enlightenment, "neo-antiquarianism," mythopoetic narrative and ceremonial initiation are in vogue again: Michael Meade, storyteller, drummer, "festival maker," collaborator of Robert Bly and author of MEN AND THE WATER OF LIFE: Initiation and the Tempering of Men (HarperSanFrancisco, $22), is a master of the mode.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 03:05 pm
@Robert Gentel,
They've been confounded and conflicted since I was young. I moved west after college (1990). I landed in Santa Fe with a job in a coffee shop. There I unwound from my education, the end of which was filled with old-style feminist teachers. I realized that we were all in a state of adjustment post-civil rights. Ok, now we all have equal rights under the law, but what does that mean in reality. I decided that it'd be a long time before gender roles solidified into anything stable (if there ever will be such a thing). I felt badly for the guys because on our side we had feminists debating how women she 'be', while men had fewer of the same sort of intellectual thinkers. Women were better prepared for equal rights.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 04:55 pm
@Cliff Hanger,
Quote:
I put the word equals in quotation marks intentionally.

It woud be error to treat women as if thay were fungible.
Thay r not; thay ofen disagree among themselves.
Some of them have different values.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:20 pm
@Cliff Hanger,
Quote:

Perhaps as these dinosaurs die
out boys will truly be raised to treat women equally.

I have a bone to pick with how u put that; ( a minor bone ).

It appears to imply
that we will DO as we have been truly raised to DO.
I hope that is not the way it works.
I recommend that our boys listen to whatever anyone (including parents) says,
judge it for truth and value
and accept or reject it accordingly,
not simply that thay accept any parental programing on blind faith.
(These judgments can be tentative and/or subject to future re-evaluation.)

At my earliest of ages, I found a need to be eclectic.
As my ex-girlfriend, Marilyn put it: "take the best and leave the rest."





David
Cliff Hanger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 05:16 am
@OGIONIK,
You've described one aspect of your relationship with women-- taking the lead and being the man. How are your communication skills with women?
0 Replies
 
Cliff Hanger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 05:18 am
@OmSigDAVID,

What does fungible have to do with the topic? Please clarify. Men disagree among themselves too-- so much so they are experts at starting things like, hmm, oh yea, wars.
0 Replies
 
Cliff Hanger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 05:29 am
@OmSigDAVID,
It takes generations for certain long held beliefs and prejudices to dies out. Yes, you have an open mind and value individualism--however, you are in the minority.

The most obvious of example-- Hillary Clinton has done a lot to change the choices women will have when running for office.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
  1. Forums
  2. » Young guys try to read society's road map for behavior
Copyright © 2022 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 05/21/2022 at 04:26:50