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The Non-Evolution of Modern Man

 
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2009 06:25 am
@iamsam82,
Quote:
I merely wanted to show that even a ridiculous notion based on alien intervention is still, logically, much sounder than any notion based on God. Observe:

"How did we get from Neanderthal to modern man? I am modern man. I live on a planet. There are other planets. Other planets may have things living on them. Other things could have brought man to earth."...


Talking about aliens doesn't fix anything but basically just kicks the can down the road another few yards. Who created the aliens??

Likewise if God or anybody else genetically re-engineered the neanderthal or some other hominid into modern man, then how did the engineer get created.

The thing which you CAN rule out is the idea of modern man evolving from neanderthals or any other hominid.

That's just one nail in the coffin of evolutionism, amongst many.

The fruit fly experiments totally failed to produce macroevolution and when DNA/RNA was discovered the reason for that became pretty obvious: our entire living world is driven by information content, and the only information there ever was in those experiments was that for a fruit fly. Trying to get any other kind of insect out of that via mutation and selection was like trying to bang Hondas around in a demo derby until one of them turned into a Ferrari or Maserati. It don't work that way...
0 Replies
 
Dunhill808
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 12:55 am
Gunga, would this new 'nail' in the coffin of evolution be much the same as the other arguments that have been used by creationists? Such as the eye, the horse or ….god forbid....that stupid example using the banana?

It is true that there are a gaps in the evidence library of evolution, we will never have a complete record of the decent of man from a common ancestor that we share with todays primates, and that is to be expected considering the large expanse of time required for our species to evolve.

But considering that the evidence we have for the evolution for other species its undeniable that the evolutionary process works and is a part of nature. Combined with the evidence we have for our ancestry, logic and reason aside, it paints a pretty plausible picture that shows us to be nothing more than highly developed primates.

It seems to me that your 'god lives in the margins' of science, as someone (cant remember who) said. It is a common tactic of creationists to look for holes in the theory of evolution in order to discredit it without looking at all the things about it that work. Ironically the scientific community should be thankful that the IDers are constantly pointing out supposed gaps or flaws, scientists love that! Science thrives on getting the most complete and accurate models of the natural world and the only way that this can be done s with harsh scrutiny, even if it does come from the sadly ignorant.

PS " where the did the 'trillions' of years requirement come from? Microevolution has been observed in well documented experiments involving bacteria that clearly display the amazing speed by which natural selection can occur. Selective breeding has show that breeds of animals that bare almost no physical or genetic resemblance to their ancestors can be created in a few hundred years. Finally astronomical evidence puts the universe around 14 billion years old, and as evolution has been shown to be a valid natural mechanism, the 'Haldane dilemma' as you called it is invalidated.

Oh and PPS " research done into comparative genetics by Dawkins ( I don't like to use his work as an example because every bugger does, but) has shown that interbreeding between our species and current apes shows that we very likely had a common ancestor.




0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 01:56 am
@gungasnake,
I looked upon the Neanderthals more as cousins,
as collaterals, rather than ancestors.




gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 10:26 am
@OmSigDAVID,
They're simply not related to us other than possibly for involving similar design techniques. The neanderthal was a very advanced, extinct ape, the most advanced member of the same family which includes chimps and gorillas. We are simply not a member of that family. The genetic gap between us and Neanderthals is too big for us to be descended from them and the gap between us and any other hominid is bigger.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 02:00 pm
@gungasnake,
All species are cousins to each other at some point along the line. So it's accurate to say that Neanderthal is a cousin species to us.
Neanderthals were also more closely related to us than to any other great ape. Recent genetic results show that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens interbred. However, we did not descend from Neanderthal (and nobody has asserted that we did).

David is more accurate in his assessment than you are.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 04:21 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
They're simply not related to us other than possibly for involving similar design techniques. The neanderthal was a very advanced, extinct ape, the most advanced member of the same family which includes chimps and gorillas. We are simply not a member of that family. The genetic gap between us and Neanderthals is too big for us to be descended from them and the gap between us and any other hominid is bigger.
Unless I 'm mistaken, there was never any question
of our having been lineal descendants of the Neanderthals.
I 'm under the general impression that thay were always considered a collateral species of human.

I do not pretend to any expertise in this matter.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:02 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Recent genetic results show that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens interbred.


That's basically wishful thinking on the part of researchers who ought to know better. Every competently written article you'd ever find says that the Neanderthal made no measurable contribution to the genome of modern man.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:04 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I 'm under the general impression that thay were always considered a collateral species of human.


Doesn't work logically. The claim is that we and the Neanderthal had a common ancestor further back. The problem is that "too far genetically removed to be descended from" is a transitive relationship, and all other hominids were further removed from us THAN the Neanderthal.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 09:35 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
Recent genetic results show that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens interbred.

That's basically wishful thinking on the part of researchers who ought to know better. Every competently written article you'd ever find says that the Neanderthal made no measurable contribution to the genome of modern man.

The contribution is quite measurable. It's about 4%.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/

The incompetent boobs who did the research took over four years and published their result in the Journal Science.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 09:37 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
That's basically wishful thinking on the part of researchers who ought to know better.

Look who's talking about wishful thinking. You're a riot Smile
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:25 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
The contribution is quite measurable. It's about 4%.


http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0020080

Quote:

...Part of the challenge of resolving the human"Neandertal interbreeding issue stems from the fact that so many fossil samples"of both early humans and more archaic humans"are contaminated with the DNA of the contemporary humans who have handled them. So even if a Neandertal sample contained a “real” (or endogenous) DNA sequence resembling early humans"which would indicate intimacy between the two groups"it might be considered contaminated. When Pääbo and colleagues looked for modern DNA, they found it in every sample they examined: in the Neandertal and early human fossils"and even in cave bear teeth. To circumvent this problem, they looked only for Neandertal mtDNA as evidence of interbreeding. Since it is easy to distinguish modern human mtDNA sequences from the four Neandertal mtDNA samples that have been sequenced so far, the researchers decided to determine whether Neandertal-like mtDNA could be found in other Neandertal fossils as well as in early human remains.

As these fossils are precious commodities, Pbo's group applied a technique developed in their lab that uses amino acid content as a measure of extractable endogenous DNA and requires removing just 10 mg of bone from a specimen rather than much larger pieces of bone. Of 24 Neandertal and 40 early modern human fossils analyzed, they found four Neandertal and five early human specimens that passed the amino acid test. These fossils included samples classified as “transitional” between the two groups and represented a wide distribution across Europe, where the two groups would likely have encountered one another. When they analyzed these samples for Neandertal mtDNA, they found mtDNA sequences that are absent in contemporary human mtDNA genes but quite similar to those found in the four previously sequenced Neandertals. They found no Neandertal-like mtDNA in the early human samples.

While the authors explain that it's impossible to definitively conclude that no genetic flow occurred between early humans and Neandertals given the limited number of early human fossils available, they point out that even fossil samples considered as anatomically transitional between modern humans and Neandertals failed to show evidence of mtDNA exchange. Thus, Pääbo and colleagues conclude, while it's possible that Neandertals made a small contribution to the genetic makeup of contemporary humans, the evidence cannot support the possibility of a large contribution.


That is consistent with the total lack of evidence of crossbreeding under circumstances in which much would be expected described by James Shreeve in his "Neanderthal Peace". I assume this is because, Neanderthal DNA being about halfway between ours and that of chimpanzees, interbreeding was simply no possible. It would be like trying to cross humans and horses or dogs, i.e. it just wouldn't work.

Russian/Soviet scientists discovered the same thing when they tried to cross humans with apes to produce a perfect working class in the 1930s; all the subjects died.


rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:44 am
@gungasnake,
The article you provided is from 2004. Things have changed since then. The new genetic evidence is well documented and compelling.
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 12:01 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

The article you provided is from 2004. Things have changed since then. The new genetic evidence is well documented and compelling.


I wouldn't mind a link to that, I love evidence!
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 12:29 pm
@CarbonSystem,
Follow the link that I provided to the natgeo article and it should lead you to the original journal.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 10:11 pm
This is the major thing anybody interested in this question needs to read:

http://discovermagazine.com/1995/sep/theneanderthalpe558

Quote:

...Whatever the tools suggest, the skeletons of moderns and Neanderthals look different, and the pattern of their differences is too consistent to dismiss. As anthropologist Erik Trinkaus of the University of New Mexico has shown, those skeletal differences clearly reflect two distinct patterns of behavior, however alike the archeological leavings may be. Furthermore, the two physical types do not follow one from the other, nor do they meet in a fleeting moment before one triumphs and the other fades. They just keep on going, side by side but never mingling. In his behavioral approach to bones, Trinkaus purposely disregards the features that might best discriminate Neanderthals and moderns from each other genetically. By definition, these traits are poor indicators of the effects of life-style on bone, since their shape and size are decided by heredity, not by use. But there is one profoundly important aspect of human life where behavior and heredity converge: the act that allows human lineages to continue in the first place.

Humans love to mate. They mate all the time, by night and by day, through all the phases of the female’s reproductive cycle. Given the opportunity, humans throughout the world will mate with any other human. The barriers between races and cultures, so cruelly evident in other respects, melt away when sex is at stake. Cortés began the systematic annihilation of the Aztec people--but that did not stop him from taking an Aztec princess for his wife. Blacks have been treated with contempt by whites in America since they were first forced into slavery, but some 20 percent of the genes in a typical African American are white. Consider James Cook’s voyages in the Pacific in the eighteenth century. Cook’s men would come to some distant land, and lining the shore were all these very bizarre-looking human beings with spears, long jaws, browridges, archeologist Clive Gamble of Southampton University in England told me. God, how odd it must have seemed to them. But that didn’t stop the Cook crew from making a lot of little Cooklets.

Project this universal human behavior back into the Middle Paleolithic. When Neanderthals and modern humans came into contact in the Levant, they would have interbred, no matter how strange they might initially have seemed to each other. If their cohabitation stretched over tens of thousands of years, the fossils should show a convergence through time toward a single morphological pattern, or at least some swapping of traits back and forth.

But the evidence just isn’t there, not if the TL and ESR dates are correct. Instead the Neanderthals stay staunchly themselves. In fact, according to some recent ESR dates, the least Neanderthalish among them is also the oldest. The full Neanderthal pattern is carved deep at the Kebara cave, around 60,000 years ago. The moderns, meanwhile, arrive very early at Qafzeh and Skhul and never lose their modern aspect. Certainly, it is possible that at any moment new fossils will be revealed that conclusively demonstrate the emergence of a Neandermod lineage. From the evidence in hand, however, the most likely conclusion is that Neanderthals and modern humans were not interbreeding in the Levant.

Of course, to interbreed, you first have to meet. Some researchers have contended that the coexistence on the slopes of Mount Carmel for tens of thousands of years is merely an illusion created by the poor archeological record. If moderns and Neanderthals were physically isolated from each other, then there is nothing mysterious about their failure to interbreed. The most obvious form of isolation is geographic. But imagine an isolation in time as well. The climate of the Levant fluctuated throughout the Middle Paleolithic--now warm and dry, now cold and wet. Perhaps modern humans migrated up into the region from Africa during the warm periods, when the climate was better suited to their lighter, taller, warm-adapted physiques. Neanderthals, on the other hand, might have arrived in the Levant only when advancing glaciers cooled their European range more than even their cold-adapted physiques could stand. Then the two did not so much cohabit as time-share the same pocket of landscape between their separate continental ranges.

While the solution is intriguing, there are problems with it. Hominids are remarkably adaptable creatures. Even the ancient Homo erectus- -who lacked the large brain, hafted spear points, and other cultural accoutrements of its descendants--managed to thrive in a range of regions and under diverse climatic conditions. And while hominids adapt quickly, glaciers move very, very slowly, coming and going. Even if one or the other kind of human gained sole possession of the Levant during climatic extremes, what about all those millennia that were neither the hottest nor the coldest? There must have been long stretches of time--perhaps enduring as long as the whole of recorded human history--when the Levant climate was perfectly suited to both Neanderthals and modern humans. What part do these in-between periods play in the time-sharing scenario? It doesn’t make sense that one human population should politely vacate Mount Carmel just before the other moved in.

If these humans were isolated in neither space nor time but were truly contemporaneous, then how on earth did they fail to mate? Only one solution to the mystery is left. Neanderthals and moderns did not interbreed in the Levant because they could not. They were reproductively incompatible, separate species--equally human, perhaps, but biologically distinct. Two separate species, who both just happened to be human at the same time, in the same place. ...


rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 04:59 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
This is the major thing anybody interested in this question needs to read:

Oops, I read something different. Something dated this year, not 1995.
0 Replies
 
 

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