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New A2K is Anti-Free Speech

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 04:53 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Hawk is talking about impresions.


He's also making up claims about the way the site is being used and the intentions that I have these aren't mere opinions. He's not merely saying he thinks something may happen or that it might be bad, he's saying that it is, and that he's oppressed.

He claims the software change has changed the community's behavior in bad ways, and is making up numbers to try to support this assertion. I know they are his impressions but they are wrong and he cannot support his accusations with evidence.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 04:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Re the creator, yes you have it. Also, I take his changing the meeting place with out first engaging in dialog with those of us who have supported his site by using it as a blatant act of disrespect.


You think you support the site? What nonsense, you've been here whining a few months while I've spent tens of thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of hours on this for years. You haven't supported a damn thing and have been an eyesore in the community since you showed up.

Quote:
I would feel the same way if my fav restaurant with no notice changed the menu and the interior in an obvious effort to go down market to create more traffic and profit.


You are not a customer. You are a freeloading whiner.

Quote:
The right goes to the owner, but it sucks, and I will speak my mind before I find a new fav place that better supports what I believe in.


Nah, you'll whine and whine for months more. If you think this is support, then please stop supporting the site already. We'd do just fine without you.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 05:27 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
We'd do just fine without you.


Well- of course we would. That's not the point. We couldn't allow ourselves to be posited on Hawk's presence. Nobody is indispensible.

I don't think he can articulate his impression.

We have actually hit the mother-lode. Or the "Mother" lode if you prefer.

Whether considerations of that are "interesting" or "comforting and reassuring" or even "warm and fuzzy" remains to be seen.

Whether Media is being feminised is the question.

An Agony Aunt type of thing with only warm and fuzzy advice on offer.

And-

Quote:
I've spent tens of thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of hours on this for years.


is something I never lose sight of. The psychoanalysis of business acumen is an endlessly fascinating subject.

I bend down in the pub to pick up low denomination coins of the realm from where others have carelessly thrown them. It upsets me that the Queen's head is being trampled underfoot by a bunch of piss-artists.

"Tens of thousands of dollars" is a significant literary expression in my book. And "tens of thousands of hours" of precious time is something literature can't express.
Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 05:38 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Well- of course we would. That's not the point. We couldn't allow ourselves to be posited on Hawk's presence. Nobody is indispensible.


That's not the point I'm making so much that claiming I've shown "disrespect" to him as a customer neglects that he's not in any way shape or form a customer and that the "support" he claims to have provided is something I think we would be better off without.

Quote:
I don't think he can articulate his impression.


I don't think he can either, but that won't stop him from trying.

Quote:
Whether considerations of that are "interesting" or "comforting and reassuring" or even "warm and fuzzy" remains to be seen.

Whether Media is being feminised is the question.


What does that have to do with this software? His retrosexual arguments have not suffered. He is not being "oppressed".

An Agony Aunt type of thing with only warm and fuzzy advice on offer.

Quote:
Quote:
I've spent tens of thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of hours on this for years.


is something I never lose sight of. The psychoanalysis of business acumen is an endlessly fascinating subject.


I spent time and money on the site because I like to, and because it means a lot to me. There's not a lot to psychoanalyze there, having a place to debate and discuss like this is something important to me.

Hawkeye's claims that I intend to "oppress" his "free thought" for business reasons are just more of his baseless lies. He knows nothing of what we plan or our motivations and is simply blaming the site for his own unpopularity.

Quote:
"Tens of thousands of dollars" is a significant literary expression in my book. And "tens of thousands of hours" of precious time is something literature can't express.


It's a significant amount of money out of my pocket, and a significant amount of my time. That's why when he goes on with this nonsense of him being disrespected as a customer I will call him out on it. He's no customer and has never provided any kind of the "support" he claims to have been providing. I do this because I like to, and because I like the community. There are plenty of people in the community that have provided support, but he's certainly not one of them and his claims to have been disrespected by not having his way with the site's software design is absurd.
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 05:40 pm
@spendius,
Not to speak of him like he ain't in the room, but...

(re hawk)

He is also starting to argue in the mainstream without resorting to being a jack-ass.

I read lotsa crap I don't like, I don't read abusive crap for long...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 05:46 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I understand all that Bob.

But dissent is our strength and not a weakness. We can examine Hawk's points. There's no denying that he feels something and that is authentic. He takes it more seriously than I do. I might not mind feminisation.

Recognising it is not objecting to it. I am a bit fed up getting heavy plant out of ditches and am all in favour of women taking over while we men sit at home prettying ourselves up before the vanity mirror.

It seems a good idea on the face of it.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 05:49 pm
@Robert Gentel,
As long as you don't mind all the ditches being full of heavy plant I mean.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 06:23 pm
@Rockhead,
Quote:
He is also starting to argue in the mainstream without resorting to being a jack-ass.

In my opinion I have not changed, it is perception of me that has changed. I am perceived as everything from a misogynistic rapist to a fem whiner, now that is quite a spread. I'll spare you my Zen intertwining of the masculine and feminine explanation for this, but would like to suggest that it is possible that I was never the jack-ass you and others decided that I was.

re the creator post: I get that you have a lot invested in a2k, to include ego, and that it is very important to you that it works. No mater what happens with this experimental (as in ground breaking so far as I know in programing) new a2k you deserve a lot of credit and appreciation for the old a2k, as do all of the mods and others who invested hard core time into it.
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 06:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
Be careful bout puttin' others on my team...

I yank your chain once in a while, but you know I don't troll you, know???

You whine a LOT...
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 06:33 pm
Lot of credit and appreciation for the new a2k too!
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 06:48 pm
Probably my primary motive for checking into a2k is to learn to argue well, mostly in arguments with myself, and to stand up in real life for my opinions, which may or may not be in the process of change.

Some of us seem to have a cyclical thing going on - with no chance of someone else's comment hooking on and getting a grip - and having ear shutters, metaphorically. This gets tiring for the reader and will be reflected in votes, for those who follow votes as interesting.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 07:06 pm
@Rockhead,
one man's whine is anthers constructive criticism.

I come from a belief that everything can be talked about, that it is actions that are judged. A2K is a very diverse group, the goal I would hope is to share knowledge based upon our individual experience, to share some of who we are. You and others have been guilty of trying to shut down speech that you don't like, and I have a problem with that. You people gum up what makes a2k unusual and valuable. You get on your high horse and try to decide what is ok to talk about what is not, when a person has said something that in your mind makes them morally unfit to speak even though you don't know the person the lynch mob flys into action. So many of you guess at motive and decide that you know, thus a vocal dissenter or holder of minority opinion becomes a troll, one who is an advisory to a2k or at best a nuisance. Thus one who believes that America's rape laws are a mess and also believes that teens should be given more rights becomes the rapist who would abuse your kids if he could get away with it.

I am disappointed that the new a2k gives every indication the RG bought into this crappolla from all of YOU whiners, those who can't or won't work around people who don't agree with you and have morals and constitutions that are not your own. It would be helpful if you would let people say their piece, try to take them as they are and not how you want them to be, to assume that they are being honest until you have some evidence that they are not.
dlowan
 
  5  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 07:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
There, there Fox.

If you comment, you will be drawn into the goo.

The thing about their faith in a conspiracy theory (note Hawk is now even developing religious language.....eg "The Creator") is, that like all conspiracy theorists, anything anyone says becomes grist to their mill.

Not saying not to comment...just be aware that anything you DO say can and will be distorted to support their delusions.

Wink

It's kind of funny to watch their particular King Charles' Heads semi-blending into a kind of weird two-headed chimera.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 07:27 pm
@dlowan,
place a label on opinion, and discard without any further bother.....very handy skill of one does not want to be bothered with alternate world views.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 07:32 pm
@dlowan,
I don't mind as I understood the analogy and where it came from and it was arrived at logically. And I was allowed to speak on my own behalf and clarify my intent.

I do understand the frustration of some here as I have shared it and spoken to it, but I don't accept that there is any kind of malicious intent or conspiracy involved. I think it is just one of those things we may have to live with in order to enjoy other features that we like. If the concerns can be addressed without sacrificing a better game plan, then great. If not, I imagine we'll all cope with no serious psychological damage.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  4  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 07:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
You are quite obviously living in your own "three foot universe" and have not looked into my history on A2K at all...

Have some good sharp Vermont cheddar to go with that whine, Hack...
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 08:54 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
But dissent is our strength and not a weakness.


And there's clearly no problem with dissent happening is there?

Quote:
We can examine Hawk's points. There's no denying that he feels something and that is authentic. He takes it more seriously than I do. I might not mind feminisation.

Recognising it is not objecting to it. I am a bit fed up getting heavy plant out of ditches and am all in favour of women taking over while we men sit at home prettying ourselves up before the vanity mirror.

It seems a good idea on the face of it.


This has nothing at all to your positions on gender. If hawkeye has a legitimate qualm about the site, I want to take a look at it. But he's just trying to portray himself as a victim of oppression that doesn't exist.

I am not going to be swayed by his feelings, if he wants us to "recognize" that something is happening then he needs to show some evidence that it is, in fact, happening because the data I look at doesn't support his claims.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 09:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I come from a belief that everything can be talked about, that it is actions that are judged.


And what are you having problems talking about on this software?

Quote:
You and others have been guilty of trying to shut down speech that you don't like, and I have a problem with that.


So? What do you want? For them to shut up? Laughing

Freedom of expression doesn't mean people don't get to tell you your expression is stupid.

Quote:
You get on your high horse and try to decide what is ok to talk about what is not


They do nothing more than criticize your expression just like you are criticizing theirs right now. Are you "oppressing" them from that high horse of yours?

Freedom of expression doesn't mean nobody's allowed to tell you that what you are saying is stupid.

Quote:
Thus one who believes that America's rape laws are a mess and also believes that teens should be given more rights becomes the rapist who would abuse your kids if he could get away with it.


What the hell does this have to do with the software? You gained that reputation on the previous software and haven't even been in any such discussions on this software.

So what is your point? That people didn't like you? That people went overboard in their reactions to you? I agree with you and said as much about this before. However, all of that existed prior to the software change so you don't get to pin your unpopularity on me. The personalization tools we made allow us to keep deeply unpopular members and deeply controversial subjects with less censorship than what previously happened. You can't demonstrate how the software is responsible for the reactions you received because it isn't. And you can't demonstrate that this software is inhibiting personal expression more than the previous software because it isn't.

If you want to decry groupthink then by all means do so, but the software isn't responsible for the groupthink and you were getting those reactions before the change. In fact, you were getting them a lot more by my estimate as the people who reacted viscerally to you now aren't attacking you as much.

So if your point is that you've faced hyperbolic reactions and ridiculous personal attacks I agree with you, but the software is not responsible for this and it was happening long before the new site launched.

Quote:
I am disappointed that the new a2k gives every indication the RG bought into this crappolla from all of YOU whiners, those who can't or won't work around people who don't agree with you and have morals and constitutions that are not your own.


They aren't the ones whining about being unpopular while also decrying popularity.

Grow some skin for heaven's sake! If you want to engage in debate on controversial subjects you should expect dissent and occasionally even vitriolic dissent. The software isn't responsible for the reactions you get, no matter how hard you try to blame it for your frustrations.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2008 06:10 am
@Robert Gentel,
Why have you altered My Posts Bob?

How do I get to acronyms quickly now. Or any other threads I have been active on recently?
ancient punk
 
  3  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2008 06:46 am
I'm confused. I've just joined this site primarily to comment on a thread about a music club. This thread is like something out of the new world order. Theres a lot of hatred here?
 

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