New A2K is Anti-Free Speech

@aperson,

the intent is to make a2k free flowing, fast moving and and exciting experience. The problem is that these atmospherics get in the way of discussion. Making a case is a methodical process, which sometimes takes awhile, and can be boring. As our ancestors who once could sit on the front porch and talk to each other for hours would tell us if they were here, the best conversations are not rushed.

The popularity metric was a means to an end, one that was ill suited for people who care about the substance of ideas over superficial emotional experience.

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

I can only say....

whoa-mobiles.

Ah, that's frivolous. But.. really, folks, get a grip, and then come back with good arguments.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

it is easy to see that you are right....on the old a2k posts with no replies almost always got at least near 50 views

Nonsense. Now you are making up numbers for evidence. The old site had an average ratio of about 10 views per post just like it does now. If the topic had enough age it would pick up more views just like it will now.

Quote:

On the new a2k they are off of the front page with-in hours.

Just like on the old a2k. If nobody responded, it was off the main search listings within hours. So what's your point?

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Those who point out problems are martyrs.

You haven't pointed out any problems, you just whine incessantly about the "gestapo regime". I've asked you over and over for examples of what you are alleging and you are unable to come up with any specific example of the software causing the "oppression" you say you are suffering.

0 Replies

@aperson,

aperson wrote:

The voting system is corrupted and should be removed.

Corrupted? Then surely you have some evidence for this claim?

Quote:

It also poses serious issues in debate.

If the issues are so very serious, surely you can give some examples of them then? Not just rambling about what a popularity contest it all is but real concrete examples of these serious issues you have observed.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

I did the leg work for you Hawkeye. Now all you need to do is provide the conclusions.

Your Topics

You've created 13 topics in 2008. Your Most Viewed and Most Replied Topic is the one on Rape. There hasn't been a post in it since July 8, 2008 which is long before the conversion to the new A2k. You haven't created any New Topics since July 27, 2008.

Below is a list of all the topics from your profile page in which you've posted that have had replies since the date of the conversion to the new A2K. None of the topics have a negative vote number, and a handful of them have fewer than 2 positive votes. The list will change as more topics are posted to by others. This is a snapshot. The first number to the left of the topic title is the number of votes for that topic.

In the meantime, let's take a look at this specific topic. Brandon started it on 9/1/08 at 8:34 a.m. Since then it has had 984 views and 84 replies as of 11:50 pm on 9/5/08. There have been 25 different people posting in this topic with Robert Gentel writing 17 of them, Brandon writing 15 of them and Hawkeye writing 9 of them.

With these statistics and the list below, please explain how the presentation of your opinions to others is being suppressed by the new A2K.

Your Posts

Topics In Which Hawkeye Has Posted Since The Newly Formatted A2K

Quote:

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1 Reply

@Butrflynet,

If you look you will see that I was speaking of threads that get no replies, ie unpopular threads. What I said was that threads that get zero replies now get fewer views. This has nothing to do with my post history, though I have had a few of my threads end with 0.

My point is that threads get less of a look before they fall out of view, less of a chance to have a life. If I am not mistaken ollady was in part making the same point. We can't get good data at this point because the data is somewhat time sensitive, but I used to check the not replied to page at the old a2k and usually the threads got near 50 looks. when I go back a few days on the new a2k and look at thread that have no replies many have around 15 looks. To me this is significant.

the comparison that sticks with me is between the tv networks of 20 years ago and of today, back then a new show could count on at least half a season to make it, sometimes good shows got even more. Today if a show looks like a dud it gets as little as 4 weeks before it is replaced. It takes time for people to find a good show sometimes, and it sometimes take time for a discussion to develop. If 45 people see a post there is more likelihood that one will post a follow-up that gets the ball rolling than if only 15 see it.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

My point is that threads get less of a look before they fall out of view, less of a chance to have a life.

You've repeated your "point" over and over, but that doesn't make it right. It's simply not true that topics are now getting fewer looks on average than they did in the past.

Quote:

We can't get good data at this point because the data is somewhat time sensitive, but I used to check the not replied to page at the old a2k and usually the threads got near 50 looks.

You are just making up numbers again. And you are wrong. On the previous site, threads did not average 50 views without a reply.

Even with a big dip in search traffic (that has since recovered) and even without email updates (which was a pretty common way that views were generated) and even with double the posts per page (meaning half the number of page loads needed to read the same amount of posts) the numbers are not below the previous site's numbers.

You are just making this stuff up as you go. I've been doing web analytics for able2know about 4 times a day and closely following the clickstream data during this transition, and under no conceivable metric is what you describe happening.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Actually, your theme in this topic has been about suppression of minority views and mob rule. You only switched over to the issue of unanswered topics once TheOldLady brought it up.

You might be correct when you take note of the lower view counts on UnAnswered Topics. I don't remember what they were on the old site. But it isn't a result of the voting system. It is more the result of membership unfamiliarity with the tool that allows them to view Questions and Sort them by Answered, Unanswered or both. Because new topics often got buried below the more active threads you had to make use of a similar tool on the old A2K. You had to take the extra step of clicking on the Unanswered Topics link to view a separate list of those unanswered topics.

Once the navigation tools have been settled upon and tutorials written to help people figure out how to use them, those View counts on the Unanswered Questions list will increase as people start making habitual use of that Unanswered Question sorting parameter. Right now we're still in limbo while the site is in transition and it isn't really fair to draw such conclusions on a product that is not yet complete and has yet to be fully introduced to the members.

1 Reply

@Butrflynet,

I was chipping in to support ollady on her point, but it does tie in with my concerns. The new a2k was designed to facilitate avoidance, and I think that the lack of views for stuff that does not get picked-up ties into it. I don't think the problem is so that so many don't know how to use a2k yet, I think the lack of views for unpopular posts that are attempting to start a conversation is a permanent feature. I think the lower view counts of unreplied to threads is evidence that minority views now have a harder time getting heard and starting conversation, as was the intent when the site was created.

The threads that went no where with few views very likely did not attract the instant interest that they needed to stay alive for reasons other than they were making an interesting but unpopular point (minority view), they may for instance have been pointless or something, but the dynamic of churn and burn is demonstrated, and it is hostile to discussion.

1 Reply

I am not taking sides here or at least that is not my intent.

I still HATE using that thumbs down button on innocent threads that are no doubt interesting to some, but without being able to move aside topics that don't interest me, the All Topics page is unpleasant and difficult to navigate to find new stuff that does interest me.

In so doing, however, I sometimes do a disservice even to myself. When I have not used the thumbs down to remove a thread from view and just scroll over that thread for awhile, sometimes I see it generating considerable interest and go back for a second look. And sometimes I then change my mind and decide it is something I wish to participate in. Those removed from view, however, provide no such enticement and, because there is no way to discern which is which without opening them all, I will likely never revisit it.

I continue to dislike the speed at which the All Topics page moves which sometimes does not give really good threads time to generate response and which is cluttered with all manner of threads of exceedingly limited interest to most.

I don't know if there is a solution for this or should be. This is not a complaint. It is simply an observation.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Chumly before he departed seemed be under the impression the the lack of content on the page was due to the incompetence of the creator, but I wonder. The power of the vote really kicks in when it has the power to remove content from view, so having little content on any page increases to control given the the placement algorithms that the creator uses. It also increases the appeal (cohesion) of using the community made tags to find content. The lack of content on a page might be a power play on the part of the creator. I am not completely decided yet, but if true then the creator has no interest in slowing things down, allowing more content into the page view.

Similarity, throwing everything on to a single last post page as those who wish to not let other people tagging choices and vote casting determine what we see vastly exacerbates the problem. The creator was aware that even in the old a2k many people indexed by last post, that the new a2k would create a churn and burn last post page which is impossible to keep up with without participating in the voting and ignoring scheme. It all ties together nicely.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

I guess I'm not picking up ulterior motives myself Hawkeye and, I'm pretty confident that the intention here is not to silence the minority. I do agree that the system does somewhat have that net effect, but I put that in the category of good intentions producing unintended negative consequences rather than any intended restriction on free speech.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Chumly before he departed seemed be under the impression the the lack of content on the page was due to the incompetence of the creator, but I wonder. The power of the vote really kicks in when it has the power to remove content from view, so having little content on any page increases to control given the the placement algorithms that the creator uses.

Nonsense he was talking about "white space" and under no view is there less of the content than there was previously, the topic pages now have 20 posts instead of 10.

As to your idiotic assumption about algorithms, it makes no sense and for this format I'd actually prefer a lot more per page (e.g. up to 100 replies per page).

Quote:

It also increases the appeal (cohesion) of using the community made tags to find content. The lack of content on a page might be a power play on the part of the creator.

What lack of content? Why can't you support your assertions with evidence?

Quote:

I am not completely decided yet, but if true then the creator has no interest in slowing things down, allowing more content into the page view.

You are quite a jerk, you keep making accusations about me and my intentions based of your imagination.

Quote:

Similarity, throwing everything on to a single last post page as those who wish to not let other people tagging choices and vote casting determine what we see vastly exacerbates the problem.

Now you aren't even making sense in the language, much less the technology.

Quote:

The creator was aware that even in the old a2k many people indexed by last post, that the new a2k would create a churn and burn last post page which is impossible to keep up with without participating in the voting and ignoring scheme. It all ties together nicely.

You are just making up words that you don't even know how to use now.

What do you mean when you try to put together jargon like "many people indexed by last post"?

And if everything in this "scheme" ties together so very nicely why can't you show examples of the pernicious plans you claim to see?

You like playing the voice crying in the wilderness but for all your cries that the sky is falling you have no evidence to show for it.

Why can't you substantiate the accusations you make about me? Is it because the software is "oppressing" your ability to support your arguments? Laughing

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I don't think the problem is so that so many don't know how to use a2k yet, I think the lack of views for unpopular posts that are attempting to start a conversation is a permanent feature.

But you still can't show any evidence for your claim? For someone who claims this whining is all about preserving the ability to debate you to a piss poor job at making your case by being unable to show any supporting evidence for it.

What evidence do you have for your arguments?

Quote:

I think the lower view counts of unreplied to threads is evidence that minority views now have a harder time getting heard and starting conversation, as was the intent when the site was created.

You don't know what the intent was, and don't even know what the effect is. So what you think isn't as important as what's real. And why can't you show a measurable problem that you are going on and on about?

What evidence do you have for your arguments?

Quote:

The threads that went no where with few views very likely did not attract the instant interest that they needed to stay alive for reasons other than they were making an interesting but unpopular point (minority view), they may for instance have been pointless or something, but the dynamic of churn and burn is demonstrated, and it is hostile to discussion.

Quite a story you spin.

What evidence do you have for your arguments?

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

Quote:

All new threads hit the forum equally. If you want a topic to live, make it interesting

Don't forget comforting and reassuring Rocky.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Warm and fuzzy is a bonus, ol' chap...

0 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

What evidence do you have for your arguments?

What evidence does anybody have for an argument in this world of mirrors and shadows? Hawk is talking about impresions. He has a certain impression, which I share but don't much care about, a writer can only write in the conditions he is facing, and he feels that the impression was intelligently designed rather than having come about as Foxy would have it. Hawk rates your intelligence higher than Foxy does. She was talking about incompetence like when Oliver Hardy did something to solve a problem and it had unintended consequences.

So it's odd you call him a jerk.

I assume that the previous effort wasn't producing the returns expected, or hoped for, and this is a new format. Like The Times going tabloid.

I saw a site once where the mods blotted anybody they thought stupid. "Piss off" they posted and pulled the plug. It was an upmarket thing. Like The New Yorker.

I think this new vision is heading down on the well known evidence that you can't underestimate the stupidy of the general public.

Thus good business. If it works.

3 Replies

@spendius,

I am curious about why you don't care, you have 33k posts, it would appear that you are invested. You also appear to like to engage in intelligent discussions, so how can you not care??

Re the creator, yes you have it. Also, I take his changing the meeting place with out first engaging in dialog with those of us who have supported his site by using it as a blatant act of disrespect. I would feel the same way if my fav restaurant with no notice changed the menu and the interior in an obvious effort to go down market to create more traffic and profit. The right goes to the owner, but it sucks, and I will speak my mind before I find a new fav place that better supports what I believe in.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Whoa now. "Incompetence" is not the term I would have chosen here since I do not put "try and try again" into the same category as not being able to accomplish a goal. If the goal is as Hawkeye and Spendi describe it, however much with differing passions, then I too will be disappointed. But I am unconvinced that such goal is the intent.

To be unable to avoid that result when that is not the intention could qualify as incompetence. I don't think we can say that we have arrived at that point yet either.

My comment was to observe the results that I see thus far but I am not ready to think that this is the final version nor am I ready to put any kind of judgment on that.

1 Reply

New A2K is Anti-Free Speech

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