12
   

Do we have a plumber on the board - BIG/LITTLE HIDDEN LEAK!

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 03:47 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
(the meter should be in the street outside, and the property of the water company)


Meters are here always inside the house (or flat), but in newer house (= built after WWII), you can turn of additionally some pipes.

(And since the water companies only are the owners of the pipes up to the meter - they want bother a lot about what happens behind it, that's really plumber's work.)
0 Replies
 
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 03:56 am
@McTag,
Oh they admit there was a problem. When I turned the shower on there was a big bang and the shower head blew right off. Each tap as we turned it on went bang and we got soaked and lots of brown water. They admit there was an air lock that could have caused that...it shouldn't have, but he says it happens - hence, they came yesterday to sort... left when it looked as tho the toilets had stopped leaking and fixed the shower... but toilets are now leaking again.

These are new modern toilets .... (all very nice and enclosed - no pipes or cisterns etc can be seen - the previous folk were minimalistic and zenny) - all I keep thinking is.... where the heck is the water leaking..... I keep checking the ceilings.... (ooooh haven't checked the garage ceiling)..... offf I go......
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  3  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 04:02 am
@Izzie,
Izzie wrote:

Hey there Mac...

The water meter is just on the drive by the road. He can turn that off and the water meter stops. No water entering the house.

Turn the water back on at the road and turn the stop cock off inside the house .... no water should be entering the house. However, the water meter dial is still going round. Therefore - there is a leak somewhere "unseeable" in the house.


Is this stop-cock inside the house that you referred to here on the actual water main coming into the house? If you've turned that off and the meter is still spinning then I don't think your problem is in the house. That would indicate a leak in the pipe running from the street to the house.

Izzie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 04:10 am
@fishin,
fishin wrote:

Izzie wrote:

Hey there Mac...

The water meter is just on the drive by the road. He can turn that off and the water meter stops. No water entering the house.

Turn the water back on at the road and turn the stop cock off inside the house .... no water should be entering the house. However, the water meter dial is still going round. Therefore - there is a leak somewhere "unseeable" in the house.


Is this stop-cock inside the house that you referred to here on the actual water main coming into the house? If you've turned that off and the meter is still spinning then I don't think your problem is in the house. That would indicate a leak in the pipe running from the street to the house.




K - this is where I'm confused then.

The waterboard (meter installer) man said if the stop cock in the house is switched off (which we did - oh that was also leaking - the airlock had blown the stop cock and was dripping - so he tightened and PTFE'd it) and the meter was still going....he said that meant there was a leak IN the house.

But what you're saying Fishin (and thanku) - is that if the water is not entering the house (which it isn't if all the taps are run dry) and the dial is turning it has to be in the drive (which is also still my responsibility unfortunately!!!!)

Yep.... that makes sense doesn't it! No water coming into house - dial going round - water escaping between road and house.

K - gonna go and turn off the stopcock inside, drain taps and watch dial.

Back in a bit.

Thanku so much.... offfff I go!
fishin
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 04:24 am
@Izzie,
Izzie wrote:

But what you're saying Fishin (and thanku) - is that if the water is not entering the house (which it isn't if all the taps are run dry) and the dial is turning it has to be in the drive (which is also still my responsibility unfortunately!!!!)


Yup! Still your responsibility but at least any damage is limited to the great outdoors instead of you finding that you have a wall or floor that is about to collapse. Wink
Izzie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 04:48 am
@fishin,
Sheeeesh.... I need a large G&T

Turned off stopcock.

Drained taps

Checked meter..... STOPPED TURNING

Turned on stopcock....ran upstairs....can hear the dripping in the toilet - sounds like it is dripping OUT but there is no water to be seen.

Flushed toilets.

Turned the white thingy to lower the level in the cistern to 6L.

Flushed toilets.

Cistern filled to 6L. Stopped.......... or so it seems..... no whooshing noise.... but levels continuing to rise to above the overflow.....water still running into the pans. Both toilets. Therefore a constant draw - albeit small...but constant. Dial going round in water meter outside - nothing other water being drawn in the house.

Ergo........ both toilets systems are..... not working!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Aaaaghhhh - k..... better than a central heating leak - thinking positively and all that..... (please don't let it be the central heating!)

BUT

cannot get into toilets.... they are all enclosed and sealed in

e.g.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/LzzieIzzie/P1050989.jpg
fishin
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 04:55 am
@Izzie,
There should be a stopcock on the water line feeding your heating system. You could turn that off to stop any water from flowing into that system for now. (Luckily, it's summer so you shouldn't be needing much heat right now.) If the meter is still spinning with that turned off then it'd be a good indication that the heating system ISN'T leaking.

But it sounds like the fill valves in your loos need to be replaced (either that or you are turning the adjustment the wrong way!). Is there any chance of you taking another pic looking directly down into the top of it? (OK, I'll admit it. This is my one opportunity to sneak a peek into your loo and I'm taking it! :p )
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 05:00 am
@fishin,
K - would have no idea how to turn the boiler line off....

hey.... you wanna see my boiler too..... Razz

back in a mo..... (thanku so muccccccch!)
Izzie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 05:31 am
@Izzie,
Right...

the loo stops whooshing at the 6L line.... but in 10 mins is up to the level it shows here... then it continues til it overflows thru the big white pipe....

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/LzzieIzzie/P1050990.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/LzzieIzzie/P1050991.jpg



the big white thing in the middle here is the thingy to make the level lower turning anti clockwise where there is a minus sign...definitely turning it the right way - cistern officially stops at 6L but above small white holes.... but then continues to fill...

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/LzzieIzzie/P1050992.jpg

boiler - combi - can't see a stopcock to turn this off at all

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk41/LzzieIzzie/P1050993.jpg




k - SOUTH WEST WATER have just turned up (meter man - pressure was 7bar on the road.... he is reducing this to 3.5bar.... hasn't stepped in the house yet but have made him a nice cuppa....

anything I should be asking him

(oooh... you may have gone Fishin!) .... sorry.... shopping arrived too
fishin
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 05:44 am
@Izzie,
The "whooshing" as you call it, is what you get when the fill valve is fully open. That's entirely normal. I suspect that there is a rubber stopper in the bottom of the valve that is is either cracked or has sediment on it so that when the valve senses you've reached the 6L point, the valve closes and you stop hearing the "Whoosh" but because the stopper is worn out or crudded up, it's still allowing a small amount of water into the tank. Normally, I just replace the whole valve unit. Here in the states I can but one for $12 and replace it in about 15 minutes. It sin't a big deal to do.

There has to be a water pipe coming into and out of that boiler. They're probably either behind it or underneath. The line feeding into it should have a valve (stop-cock) to shut off water to the system.
Izzie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 06:13 am
@fishin,
Ha....... Houston... we have a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!! Appolooooooooooooo is going to continue to leak.

The pressure is so huge here that the PRV on the mains in the drive will not work....


he has replaced the PRV and set to under 4bar... within seconds we are back up to 7bar which, even tho the toilets are new etc.... the system is working but the pressure is pushing the ballvalve and forcing water into the cistern .... hence the continual flow into the pan once it has reached the overflow. In the few seconds the pressure on the mains is under 4bar - the water meter dial stops. Which proves there isn't a leak anywhere - phew phew phew (I think)

They are going to have to dig a big hole in the drive and put another PRV on the mains ..... before it hits the stopcock in the drive..... (South West Water have all mains pressure set at 10bar) which will also have a PRV on it.

We did a shifty into next door (as you do, over the fence and dog kennel) and tested their pressure on an outside tap..... which was 3.5bar - however, on my outside tap - literally within seconds it goes back up to 7bar - so he is a little confused that the PRV's are not holding my pressure within the space of 20m!!!

Anyhooo - he says he will be back and that is the next thing to try. Tho he is not guaranteeing this. Meantime, leaky toilets..... but better than leaky anything else.

Oh... the heating system is a sealed system so he says no stopcock. Not sure if that is right.... because he didn't take a look.... but.... will worry about that later.

Does this all sound feasible????

fishin
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 06:22 am
@Izzie,
Izzie wrote:

Does this all sound feasible????




It sounds very feasible!

The shut off in the loo is designed to work at normal water pressure. If the pressure is way to high (I have no idea what a "bar" equates to! "Normal" water pressure here in the states is somewhere between 40 and 70 lbs.) then the water is just forcing it's way in through wherever the weakest points in the system are. Since the loo uses springs in the valve it will almost always be the weakset point.

If your boiler is a closed system then the pressure there isn't effected by your water supply at all. Your low pressure there is due to something else entirely. (but of it is a closed system you may find that it's just cold. As the water in the system heats up it expands and since there isn't anywhere for it to go the result is higher pressure.)

Hopefully he'll get your water pressure under control fairly quickly.
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 06:34 am
@fishin,
Yep - hope so... will let you know. Thanku so very much for your help - feel much better now that I don't think there is a nasty leak somewhere.... he did have me worried about taking floorboards up and walls down... (why did he tell me that - oh well!) Imagine if I had called a plumber in....if all along it was just the pressure.

Thank you everyone else for the input too...

What a good bunch of folk.

Very Happy
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Aug, 2008 03:18 am
@Izzie,

I don't know whether you want to keep discussing this, but

Izzie wrote:

The water meter is just on the drive by the road. He can turn that off and the water meter stops. No water entering the house.

Turn the water back on at the road and turn the stop cock off inside the house .... no water should be entering the house. However, the water meter dial is still going round. Therefore - there is a leak somewhere "unseeable" in the house


is not logical to me.

What those circumstances mean (water turned on at the meter position, but off at the house stopcock, and despite this the meter is going round) is

1) your house stopcock is not operational- it's not stopping anything. It should isolate all pipework within the house. Or,

2) There is a bifurcation, junction, or leak outside the house (that is, upstream of your house stopcock) and some of the water is being diverted.

Is there an outhouse with an old water system? A horse trough? A garden sprinkler or outside supply of any kind?

Good luck

McT x
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Aug, 2008 03:49 am
@McTag,
Hey Mac

mmmm.... see what you're saying....

I am thinking... tho not sure....

if the stop cock is turned off.... as tight as I can do it... yep... no water should be going into the house.... the dial doesn't turn fast.... but it doesn't STOP moving.... unless the pressure is below 4 bar (which he was doing with the big metal twisty turny rod thing). Then it will stop.

Could it be that water is still being pushed through the stop cock because of the pressure causing the dial to turn... the chap said it was the amount of a constant DRIP DRIP DRIP.... not like when you turn the water on and the dial spins around.

I guess I could maybe turn the internal stop cock off overnite, drain the toilet cisterns, and see what consumption has been used overnite. If the cistern fills up then water is obviously still be pushed through the ctop cock - ergo, why the dial turns.

Would that make sense....


ooooh.... I don't know


I do see what you're saying tho.


Iz (still counting-LOL)zie (laughing)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Aug, 2008 03:54 am
The pressure here in Germany usually is between 5 bar (lowest) and 9 bar.

In older houses you have to use sometimes a pressure reducing valve.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Aug, 2008 04:27 am
1 bar = 14.5 (approx) PSI.

7 bar = 100 psi
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Aug, 2008 07:40 am
@dadpad,

7 bar is 1 pubcrawl

Rolling Eyes

Sorry
McTag
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 12:33 pm
@McTag,

Yo, Lizzie, is this sorted yet?

btw I had a fuse blow last night, heaven knows why. I replaced the fuse and it immediately blew again. It's in the downstairs lighting circuit (so I can still read in bed, hooray) but I can't tell where the fault is.
So, an electrician is coming tomorrow.
Let's hope it's not too expensive to fix.

2 Cents
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2008 02:12 pm
@McTag,
Agree. Fuse blows once, replace it. Blows again, call electrician.
0 Replies
 
 

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