Is a utopia possible?

I think the answer to your question -- is Utopia possible -- is contained in the definition of the word. Utopia literally means Nowhere. We speak of something impossible as a "Utopian dream." Of course Utopia is not possible. I'm not sure, though, whether this is due to the "evil" in human nature (that's a very subjective term) or just the cussedness of the way things are.

It's telling that the examples you cite -- Brave New World etc. -- are all actually dystopias, satires on the notion of Utopia. Very few actual Utopian novels come readily to mind. There's Thomas More's original, of course. More, btw, coined the word 'Utopia.' Bellamy's Looking Backward springs to mind. But, generally, no serious writer has taken the notion of a real-world Utopia seriously.

Sounds like your inundated with 'Old Testament' Reasoning. That is that the serpent was able to appeal to Eve's evil side to conspire to have her and Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge. Thus ruining the possibility of 'utopia' forever.

As for your question 'is utopia possible?' I'd have to answer to a limited degree yes---the reason is because it has been shown that selected humans can live cooperatively. The case I will point to as an example are 'squids.'

Now I don't know if you know what a 'squid' is, but it is a nuclear submariner. 'Squids' are in most opinions of those in the know very special people and as a result only about 2% of all people could qualify to be a 'squid'. First you have to be smart---I've heard that the minimum IQ of a 'squid' is 120, and that the average is 130. This requirement is necessary because every 'squid' has to be qualified to fill multiple highly technical and demanding positions. Then there are the physical requirements---being able to swim, dexterity, and work and live in confined quarters. Finally you have to be able to get along with many people in a confined space. If you consider what a nuclear submarine is, it has the floor space of the average suburban three bedroom house. Now imagine cramming 140 or so people in that house and saying you can't go outside for six months or so. Now imagine no fights or big personality disputes. That would takes some pretty good natured, 'laid back' people--and that what 'squids' are--this is also the biggest washout to prevent most people from becoming a 'squid.'

So IMO is utopia possible? My answer is yes---but you have to be very selective on letting people into your utopia. No boobs, louts, layabouts, compulsives, rabid evangelists or psychopaths need apply, regardless of their skills.

Rap

...Oh God. Please don't bring that fairy tale into my thread!

Ok, so you're saying that you can have a utopia, but only with certain people. This seems a valid theory, but on a large scale this would require mass genocide and/or eviction.

Merry Andrew has said it.

It is logically possible.

No.

I had the privilege of spending time with Aldous Huxley, just before he died, in 1963. Part of our discussion was about his "dystopia" (Brave New World). He noted that he tried to show that a eutopia (a "good place", as opposed to the "noplace" denoted by utopia) is theoretically possible in his later book, Island. As I recall, his eutopian Island achieved a very high level of well-being using quasi-buddhist mental and social hygenics.
As I also recall, the island society of his book eventually failed because of exogenous (international) forces--an expression of Merry Andrew's "cussedness of things"?

You spent time with Aldous Huxley! Wow.

Maybe in the future we could meddle with genes and some sort of g.e. human could have the capability of having a human nature that is not evil.

If we brought all the good people into one place we would still see a dystopia as some would be more good than others, creating conflict. Currently, Utopia is impossible. And I don't see the likelihood of it ever coming into existence.

We as humans are driven by desires and I would think that it would be incredibly hard to take those desires away. Unless you're Buddha

Wow you are truly privileged JL! How did you get that opportunity?

You must be old.



Anyway, I'm not going to take people just assuming a utopia is possible (the meaning, "no place" is a satire - ie there is no perfect place). I actually want people to put some thought into it. It's not just some vague, mystic concept. If it is possible, then certainly it can be perceived.

JL, I haven't read Island, but I think the concept is very interesting. Also I think a solution to the problem would be to eliminate all those outside the utopia (or "eutopia").

blakblak, yes I had that in mind in my original post (note the use of the word "transgenics", meaning genetically modified organisms.)

I disagree with your theory that goodness is relative. If everyone is above a certain point, there would be no conflict. There isn't going to be conflict just because there is variation.

As I have said before, desires, which are effectively human nature, can be suppressed or eliminated in a variety of ways. JL also added one to my list - "quasi-buddhist mental and social hygenics". I don't know exactly what that means, but it sounds fancy.

Aperson, as I recall, a memorable mental hygenic practice in Huxley's fictional society involved talking (mina?) birds continuously and ubiquitously calling out "attention", "attention," to remind people to be mindful of their experience--in the tradition, I assume, of Theravadan Buddhism's meditation practice: vipassana.

...ok...
What about my first question? It's not offensive or anything, is it?

It seems to me that EUtopia and DYStopia (perfectly "good" and "bad" societies), may be so categorized in terms of their fundamental functions, i.e., do they cohere or fall apart. They may also be so categorized, as I suspect we are doing, in terms of how good they are regarding the felt needs of their members or how bad they are regarding such needs. That involves value judgements, doesn't it? SO, what might be eutopian for Stalin might be dystopian for Jefferson. In other words the question itself is problematical.

No, this one:

in my opinion only, i think we came from a "utopia"


and hence forth ruined it, government is a prime example of anti-utopia imo

...please don't tell me your talking about Eden?

"I love people, I hate groups. People are smart, groups are stupid."
~ George Carlin

Genetic engineering, cybernetics, robotics, and artificial intelligence all point to the idea that more harmonious sustainable societies may be possible.

Maybe so. I sure wouldn't want to live in one of those societies. Therefore, for me, it would be no Utopia (or, perhaps, Eutopia is the correct word here).

well in a sense, im talking about the world pre-government (and religion)

the 2 most evil things in existence.

hands down......