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neither, the individual and the collective are always bashing heads. If one or the other ever gets much of an upper hand things get very sh+tty quickly. In America over the last two generations we have been screwed up in part because we fostered a myth of the individual. A lot of people are running around thinking that they are a island upon themselves, that they are responsible for all of the good things in their life, that every one else (society) should butt out of their business. It is all crap. they are products of the society, they got where they were one the backs of a lot of other people and with the help of government and NGO's. However, because of this false myth they undervalue the importance of society.

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how about what is more important the values of an individual or the values of society?

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Dependent on the situation..

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The important values are the ones that are correct, regardless of who holds them.

Societies don't have rights. Individual rights are the only rights.

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Who decides which are correct?

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Sociery

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Quote:

Societies don't have rights. Individual rights are the only rights.

Poppycock.

The community has the right to live in peace and safety. It has the right not to be invaded by another society. It has the right to form a culture, and morals, and norms. It has the right to create support systems, it's own trading systems etc for itself. It has the right to set laws for the invidivduals within its society to abide by. It has the right to elect a govt to manage it. etc

When a criminal has all the rights and the community none, that is clearly wrong. When the community has all the right and the criminal none, that is also clearly wrong (though I'm sure some would argue otherwise - if a person steals a loaf of bread, and is thrown into a solitary confinement black hole for 2 years- that is clearly wrong)

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Bella Dea wrote:

Who decides which are correct?

Reality.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Sociery

Sorcery?!

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vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Societies don't have rights. Individual rights are the only rights.

Poppycock.

The community has the right to live in peace and safety. It has the right not to be invaded by another society. It has the right to form a culture, and morals, and norms. It has the right to create support systems, it's own trading systems etc for itself. It has the right to set laws for the invidivduals within its society to abide by. It has the right to elect a govt to manage it. etc

Without commenting on which of these different things count as rights, you're sort of right (correct) to say that the community has rights. But it's kind of like saying, "this is a tasty box of chocolates." The individual chocolates are tasty, so they are collectively tasty. But the collection (or box) of chocolates isn't tasty over and above the extent to which the individual chocolates are tasty.

Individuals have rights, so in a sense the community has rights, because the community is a collection of individuals. But the only rights are the individual rights. The rights of the community jsut are the rights of the individuals who make up the community.

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When a criminal has all the rights and the community none, that is clearly wrong.

It is clearly wrong when a criminal has all the rights and the other individuals who make up the community have none.

Quote:

When the community has all the right and the criminal none, that is also clearly wrong (though I'm sure some would argue otherwise - if a person steals a loaf of bread, and is thrown into a solitary confinement black hole for 2 years- that is clearly wrong)

When the majority of the individuals who make up the community have all the rights, and the criminal minority has wrong, that is also clearly wrong.

Perhaps we sort of agree? I'm not sure.

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vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Societies don't have rights. Individual rights are the only rights.

Poppycock.

The community has the right to live in peace and safety. It has the right not to be invaded by another society. It has the right to form a culture, and morals, and norms. It has the right to create support systems, it's own trading systems etc for itself. It has the right to set laws for the invidivduals within its society to abide by. It has the right to elect a govt to manage it. etc

Either you have an exceptionally skewed view of "rights" or you've ignored a host of basics that refute your premise.

I live in a "community" who's abilities to create trading systems, support systems, etc are all constrained by larger communities. They can also be limited or eliminated by the will of the individuals within the community. As such, these items obviously can't be "rights". At best they could be considered "priviledges" that the individuals within the community (as well as those of the larger communitity) permit the local community to control.

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Quote:

I live in a "community" who's abilities to create trading systems, support systems, etc are all constrained by larger communities.

Thats obvious. Are you suggesting the a society doesn't have the right to set up it's own trading system, otherwise known as it's own economy?

Fishin, according to your logic, both the individual and the community has no 'rights' at all, because "They can also be limited or eliminated by the will of the individuals within the community. As such, these items obviously can't be "rights"."

Agrote wrote:

Without commenting on which of these different things count as rights, you're sort of right (correct) to say that the community has rights.

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But it's kind of like saying, "this is a tasty box of chocolates." The individual chocolates are tasty, so they are collectively tasty. But the collection (or box) of chocolates isn't tasty over and above the extent to which the individual chocolates are tasty.

Yes.

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It is clearly wrong when a criminal has all the rights and the other individuals who make up the community have none.

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vikorr wrote:

Quote:
I live in a "community" who's abilities to create trading systems, support systems, etc are all constrained by larger communities.

Thats obvious. Are you suggesting the a society doesn't have the right to set up it's own trading system, otherwise known as it's own economy?

Yup. "Society" doesn't setup trading systems - The individuals within a society elect/appoint representatives and assign them the responsibility for doing so. There is no "right" there. This is no different than me, as a shareholder, not attending the annual corporate meeting and instead, designating a proxy (another individual) to to vote on my behalf. The proxy has no "right" to cast multiple votes. They have the right to cast their own vote and the priviledge of casting mine on my behalf. When "person A" allows "person B" to act on their behalf person B doesn't inherit person A's rights (at least not anywhere that I know of...).

You appear to be attempting to look at "society" as being some abstract entity that is independent of the individuals within it. I know of no such entity.

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Fishin, according to your logic, both the individual and the community has no 'rights' at all, because "They can also be limited or eliminated by the will of the individuals within the community. As such, these items obviously can't be "rights"."

Not true. There are individual rights codified by the higher-level society/community that can't be readily abridged and I can have my day in court if they are. Even in those cases where the individual's rights can be infringed upon there are severe limitations as to when and how severely. The same isn't true for "society".

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Quote:

But it's kind of like saying, "this is a tasty box of chocolates." The individual chocolates are tasty, so they are collectively tasty. But the collection (or box) of chocolates isn't tasty over and above the extent to which the individual chocolates are tasty.

Hmmm very good similie. Except what if in your chocolate box there is a chocolate with a large razorblade in it. In order to ensure the rest of the box is tasty must you throw out the dangerous chocolate?

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ZoSo wrote:

Quote:

But it's kind of like saying, "this is a tasty box of chocolates." The individual chocolates are tasty, so they are collectively tasty. But the collection (or box) of chocolates isn't tasty over and above the extent to which the individual chocolates are tasty.

Hmmm very good similie. Except what if in your chocolate box there is a chocolate with a large razorblade in it. In order to ensure the rest of the box is tasty must you throw out the dangerous chocolate?

Not necessarily. That razorblade chocolate is still a chocolate with a sweet taste, and its sweet taste needs to be protected along with every other chocolate's sweet taste. I guess the first thing to try would be to remove the razorblade from the chocolate. If that can't be done, then the chocolate may need to go to prison. But there's no need to kill it unless its own life becomes too unbearable.

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vikorr wrote:

Yes, I accept that. The generalised community is a collection of specific individuals, though. Giving a criminal 'rights' will impact a collection of specific individuals.

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Yup. "Society" doesn't setup trading systems.

If you think this is so, you obviously have no idea what a society is.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/society?view=uk
society
noun (pl. societies) 1 the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community. 2 a particular community of people living in a country or region, and having shared customs, laws, and organizations. 3 (also high society) people who are fashionable, wealthy, and influential, regarded as a distinct social group. 4 an organization or club formed for a particular purpose or activity. 5 the situation of being in the company of other people.

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The individuals within a society elect/appoint representatives and assign them the responsibility for doing so

That's the workings of society.

Specialisation is only possible in a society.

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