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DNA Was Designed By A Mind

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 01:08 pm
parados wrote:
real life wrote:
So is he sloppy, or intentionally dishonest?


He is a biologist commenting on geological evidence. It isn't his field of expertise and some of the evidence presented here contrary to his statement was published about the same time as the book that containing his forward was published.

I think it is pretty obvious why a biologist might not be up on current geology or worry about how current he is when writing a forward to a book that doesn't deal with geology



He is one of the top origin of life scientists in the world, and I found it unlikely that he would be unaware of any evidence that indicated what environmental conditions may have been during the very period that is his expertise.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 01:12 pm
username wrote:
And I realize real life never presents any evidence to support his views, but merely keeps trying, with no particular luck, to poke holes in the science, but for those who might actuially like a few facts about the evidence on early life, wikipedia has a good overviewa;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prebiotic_evolution


Interesting link. Haven't had time but to read only a portion, but I will get back to it.

My favorite quote so far:

Quote:
Research by Stanley Miller and colleagues suggested that while adenine and guanine require freezing conditions for synthesis, cytosine and uracil may require boiling temperatures[19] Based on this research Miller suggested a beginning of life involving freezing conditions and exploding meteorites.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 01:37 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Why are we on this tangent again?


Because red herrings and diversions are all the weapons which "real life" has in his arsenal. He has absolutely no evidence to offer that DNA was "designed" by a mind, so he is obliged to attempt to distract the course of the discussion.

I have pointed out to him repeatedly that even if he could show that there were free ionic oxygen in the atmosphere, or even if he could prove his claim about no evidence for the early atmosphere, it wouldn't matter, because no one here is saying that DNA assembled itself in the ambient environment. He has as repeatedly ignored that, sidestepping the question entirely, because he doesn't want to discuss any evidence for the titular proposition of the thread.

He wants to talk about anything but the titular proposition of the thread.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 02:31 pm
real life wrote:



He is one of the top origin of life scientists in the world, and I found it unlikely that he would be unaware of any evidence that indicated what environmental conditions may have been during the very period that is his expertise.


It's nice that you find it unlikely but the book was published in 2002 which means the forward was probably written in 2001. Wilde's paper on zircons from the Archean period was published in 2001.

If you really want to find out, why not email Lazcano and ask him. I see nothing there other then real life trying to take something out of context and time frame to make more of it than it is. It is your usual bull ****. Don't forget to mention Wilde's paper when you ask Lazcano. I look forward to your honest report on what he said.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 02:48 pm
Oops.. My mistake it seems.
I listed the date of the book for the paperback of the second edition.

The hardcover was printed in 2001.

This is a second edition. The first edition was written in 1982.
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username
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 03:57 pm
Ah. So what we have here is real life using a quote that is at least 25 years old, 25 years which have seen probably twice as much research on early life and early earth as all the research in all the years before that, as somehow implying that we STILL have no evidence. MAYBE, just maybe, real life, you ought to use something a little more current if you're going to make statements. Maybe, just mayb,e Lazcano is not so much sloppy or wrong, or intellectually dishonest, as simply out of date. Kinda like a lot of your posts, in fact.
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Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 08:54 pm
real life wrote:

He is one of the top origin of life scientists in the world, and I found it unlikely that he would be unaware of any evidence that indicated what environmental conditions may have been during the very period that is his expertise.



And here's what the top origin of life scientists has to say about...well, you'll get it. Or not.


Since we can never know in full detail how the origin of life took place, it is not surprising that it is becoming a target for intelligent design creationists. The geological and chemical evidence required to understand life's beginnings remains insufficient and difficult to understand. For creationists, that evidentiary gap provides an opportunity to erect a framework of controversy and endless discussion around the study of prebiotic evolution and the origin of life, which they assume are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than by an undirected process like natural selection.

It is true that there is a huge gap in the current descriptions of the evolutionary transition between the prebiotic synthesis of biochemical compounds and the last common ancestor of all extant living beings. Even the unanticipated discovery in 1982--by the research teams directed by Thomas Cech and Sidney Altman--of catalytic RNA molecules (ribozymes), which can be loosely described as nucleic acids that simultaneously have characteristics of DNA and enzymes, has not closed this gap. Instead, that and related discoveries have led to a more precise definition of what should be understood as the origin of life. The origin of protein synthesis is still not understood, but the surprising conservation of widely distributed polypeptide sequences related to RNA metabolism has led my group and others to suggest that these sequences provide insights into an RNA/protein world that may have resulted from the interaction of ribozymes with amino acids, and that very likely preceded our familiar DNA/RNA/protein world. Our understanding of the origin and early stages of biological evolution still has major unsolved problems, but they are recognized by the scientific community as intellectual challenges, and not as requiring metaphysical explanations, as proponents of creationism would have it......

......Creationism is a danger to science education that should be addressed by a constructive dialogue and collective actions led by imaginative researchers and educators on both sides of the border. Our answer to the fundamentalist challenge could include better academic exchange programs, common strategies designed to promote the teaching of evolutionary biology, and joint outreach activities for both Mexican and U.S. Latino students, who share important cultural backgrounds. The potential benefits of such common strategies could be manifold, including a proper honoring of the freedom of all to follow (or not) religious beliefs, while rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, to God the things that are God'sÂ…and to Darwin those that are Darwin's.
Antonio Lazcano

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/310/5749/787
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 09:27 pm
I guess that pretty much explains what Lazcano would say to real life if he bothered to ask the question.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Aug, 2008 11:28 pm
I've actually read that piece previously.

Interesting that he seems to have a rather pessimistic view, 'we can never know in full detail how the origin of life took place' , as compared with some of our optimistic friends here on A2K , 'give us enough time and we'll figure it out, science will find the answers'.

Notice also that nothing he says in this piece contradicts Lazcano's other statement that I've quoted.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 06:55 am
You going to email him and ask that he support your opinion real life?

Or are you going to play the game of "Award winning biologists agree with me" without ever providing any actual proof they do. I think its pretty clear that you took Lazcano's statement out of context in time and now want to try to use it as a blunt instrument to support your creationist drivel in the way Lazcano specifically said he disagrees with.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 07:42 am
real life wrote:
Notice also that nothing he says in this piece contradicts Lazcano's other statement that I've quoted.

Grasping at straws...
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 07:42 am
Try to pay attention, parados. I never stated, nor implied, that Lazcano was/is a creationist/IDer .

I don't know if you get tired of recycling the same lame accusations, but I get tired of hearing them.

The old 'you're just lying' , 'you're just stupid' , 'you're just crazy' mantras are really about all you have , aren't they?

From this point forward, they'll simply be ignored.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 07:43 am
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Notice also that nothing he says in this piece contradicts Lazcano's other statement that I've quoted.

Grasping at straws...


If I'm wrong about that, please point out the contradiction.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 10:04 am
Who cares if anyone does or doesn't contradict the subject of your latest attempt to drag a red herring on the trail of this thread?

Lazcano and his statements have absolutely no bearing on the discussion. No one said DNA assembled itself in the ambient environment.

The only topic of this thread is that DNA was "designed" by a mind. You have provided NO evidence to that effect. You will never respond to this, because it's the last thing you want to discuss. So you will just continue to trail your distractions across the thread.

Put your money where you big, whiney, lieing mouth is, "real life." What evidence do you have that DNA was "designed" by a mind?

To the rest of you, if you let this clown sucker you into discussing his distractions, he gets to keep the subject off the failure of him or any other holy roller to support the proposition of this thread.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 10:28 am
real life wrote:
Try to pay attention, parados. I never stated, nor implied, that Lazcano was/is a creationist/IDer .
I never said you stated or implied any such thing.
Quote:

I don't know if you get tired of recycling the same lame accusations, but I get tired of hearing them.
Since I never made any such accusation, it may just be the voices in your head that you are hearing. It certainly isn't anything I said.
Quote:

The old 'you're just lying' , 'you're just stupid' , 'you're just crazy' mantras are really about all you have , aren't they?
Care to provide a quote of me saying any of those things? I don't recall saying any of them recently. I pointed out you take a single statement by a scientist and attempt to use it to discredit science while ignoring everything else that scientist says. That is hardly saying you are lying, stupid or crazy. If you want to imply that those tactics are lying, stupid or crazy, that's OK with me but I never said it.

Quote:

From this point forward, they'll simply be ignored.
Perhaps you should read what I say first before you claim I said something I didn't.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:40 pm
Setanta wrote:
The only topic of this thread is that DNA was "designed" by a mind.


And you want to narrowly limit discussion to what you believe to be relevant.

Sorry, set , conversation doesn't work that way.

DNA either came about on it's own, or it didn't.

If it did , then it either came about in the open environment or it didn't.

And so forth.

Eliminating the impossible or the unlikely is relevant to this topic.

Yes we know, you don't want to talk about it any other way but yours.

Get used to it. You're not going to be able to tell the world how they can and can't carry on a conversation.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:43 pm
Setanta wrote:
To the rest of you, if you let this clown sucker you into discussing his distractions, he gets to keep the subject off the failure of him or any other holy roller to support the proposition of this thread.

Unfortunately, he's never going to support the supposition of the thread. Not only is it impossible, but he has no intention of even trying, he's said so directly.

He's only interested in challenging the veracity of scientific knowledge and procedure in an attempt to imply that it is on "equal footing" with poofism. This is his pattern on every thread. I'm resigned to it.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 01:11 pm
real life wrote:


Eliminating the impossible or the unlikely is relevant to this topic.
It is relevant if you are willing to throw out what is impossible and then deal with what is "unlikely" compared to what is even more unlikely.
Quote:

Yes we know, you don't want to talk about it any other way but yours.
I think you don't want to talk about it any way but yours. You put the odds of anything happening as equal no matter what you compare it to. The odds of creationism are not the same as abiogenesis.
Quote:

Get used to it. You're not going to be able to tell the world how they can and can't carry on a conversation.
We are used to you real life. You use the same tactics over and over. That doesn't mean we have to accept your tactics as the correct way to discuss science. I would put the odds of creationism higher than the odds we will accept your form of logic as valid.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 03:49 pm
real life wrote:
Yes we know, you don't want to talk about it any other way but yours.


That's rich, coming from you--everything you post here is an attempt to avoid the burden of the thread, because you don't want to talk about it.

I didn't start this thread, and i'm not responsible for the burden of the thread. The thread is entitled "DNA was designed by a mind." Any holy roller like you who shows up to make the same assertion has the burden of proving the case--no one is obliged to disprove it.

The thread's author had enough sense to tuck his head in and get out while the getting was good. Apparently, you lack that same good sense.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2008 03:50 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
He's only interested in challenging the veracity of scientific knowledge and procedure in an attempt to imply that it is on "equal footing" with poofism. This is his pattern on every thread. I'm resigned to it.


This bears repeating.
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