Have you ever experienced the numinous?

Uh-huh. Or... break the stick!
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A monk, taking a bamboo stick, said to the people, "If you call this a stick, you fall into the trap of words, but if you do not call it a stick, you contradict facts. So what do you call it?"

At that time a monk in the assembly came forth.

He snatched the stick, broke it in two, and threw the pieces across the room.

Saying what exactly?

"Two sticks"

"Dont threaten me again"

"You can stick that"

"Its bloody obvious that the absolute nature of reality cannot be described by words. But language is all we have."

"I know a good stick repair man"

Find a new stick? I don't know, Steve!

Zen kuans I've read have a bite to them. There is a vast number of Buddhists who don't much care for Zen, anyway. As bitter as a Baptist talking about the Papists.

I think language is almost all we have... though there is that little bit of shared experience. But I also believe there's nothing new under the sun - and so do most of the other religions of the world, which lends a certain validity to the numinous experience.

edit -- That kuan also shows the frustration of the seeker. Attainment of a Constant Enlightment would be Nirvana, right?

The purpose of the Koan is to provide the student's mind a problem to focus on. When the logical, rational part of the mind is "locked-up", it opens the window through which the student can experience Satori. The Koan technique is usually associated with the Rinzai School, though it originated with the Chan School of Southern China. Chan, or Zen, are said to be founded on the Flower Sutra.

As the Buddha lay on his death bed, his disciples gathered to hear the Master's final words. Ananda, the most beloved asked if there was any truth that remained hidden, anything that would help the people find enlightenment that still remained to be said. Siddhartha Guatama reached forth and held up a single flower. Those who had not yet attained enlightenment, suddenly saw and were awakened.

Theravada teaches that each person may with diligence attain enlightenment for themselves. Mahayana holds out the hope that those unable to devote themselves to the discipline necessary to obtaining enlightenment may find salvation through the compassion of Bodhisattvas. Most lay Buddhists follow Mahayana Schools, such as the Pure Lands and the Tantric. These Buddhists are not too different Christian congregations in America. Their religion is heavily tinged with folk belief, and provides a social network filled with festivals, feasts, and temple worship that isn't too demanding. throughout the Far East, especially China, it isn't uncommon for a person to be the follower of Taoism, Confucism, Christianity and Buddhism concurrently, and as appropriate to the occasion. That's another topic.

Chan, or Zen, is a Mahayana School that emphasizes personal, sudden elightenment. Rinzai sit facing the center of the Zendo, and Soto sit facing the wall. Rinzai emphasizes the Koan as a meditation focus, while Soto emphasizes focus upon the breath. I come from the Soto tradition, and know it best. Most of the Soto lay congregations that I know of are largely made up of Japanese-Americans who hold regular weekly meetings in temples with Western style pews. Buddhist hymns are sung and the children go to Sunday School. Most often I sat in the church Zendo alone, or in the presence of a few monks. The Temple was the center of the local community and the calendar was always full of festivals, feasts, and classes in Tea Ceremony, Japanese folk dancing, etc. My sons when they were little learned serious Buddhism at home, and the Buddhism practiced by most Buddhists at Temple. I have to say that though I was always comfortable with the monks, my wife and I had only minimal acceptance by the lay congregation after maybe ten years of being members of the temple. Oh well.

But an interesting topic, all the same.

Sorry that you have received little acceptance.

No problemo. Meditation is not confined to a temple, or even a Zendo. I didn't become a Buddhist to have people to interact with. I was fortunate enough to be a part of the Bush St. Zendo of the famous Roshi Suzuki back in the early 60's. Having a great Master is better than a thousand friends to party with. Too many Westerners who become Buddhist, are really trying to become Japanese, or Chinese, or whatever. Buddhism has been successful because of its ability to remain true to the basic teachings of Siddhartha Guatam, while accomodating itself to the local cultural set. When Buddhism is fully integrated, and integrates, Western culture, then it will be truly established here.

Every moment, every breath is an exercise in mindfulness. Buddhism is not the ability to sit for hours in full lotus, or to dress a certain way, or adopt a foriegn name, or to be able to awe the masses with one's ability to throw around esoteric terms. Buddhism is about understanding and doing something about the suffering of individuals. All the rest is just frosting on the cake, something for us intellectuals to play with.

Pay attention!

spirituality and religion
There is no topic more boring than zen, when you have studied with the Buddha. I understand that language is essential to human survival while at the same time it gives us no access to Reality, to our reality in a direct or substantial way. Nevertheless the stick koan is not simply a lesson in general semantics. It, like all koans, is designed to STOP your mind so that you can see your experience (of body sensations, breath, thoughts, feelings, whatever) directly. THAT is studying with the Buddha. And in this study you learn ABSOLUTELY nothing, and need not understand anything. All good zen teachers will refer you (over and over again) to the Buddha in this sense whenever you turn to the teacher for instruction or education. And where's the Buddha-teacher? a lamp unto yourself. Now I am going to wash out my mouth.

All arguments about language and reality are largely uninteresting to me. I take reality as i find it reported to my consciousness by my senses. If i find that information incorrect, then i attempt to adjust. If ever the information i'm getting is lethally incorrect, i'll not be in position to contemplate the deeper meanings of the error.

Piffka, this is a very intereesting discussion, but I have to answer quickly for now and come back later when not at work tom read the whole thing.

Yes, I've had this experience, once very powerfully and many times in a less profound way.

Once, when I was swimming in the ocean, too far from shore to notice anything but the water, the sunlight penetrated my whole being until I got completely lost in light, and could feel nothing, I was just part of a light. I don't know how long it lasted, but eventually the light left me back to normal, I swam to shore and have always remembered this as a great gift.

If that's what happens to the soul when we die...oops work calls be back later.

Which is just what Schrodinger's cat said and look (or rather dont look) what happened to him! That's right a little trip to the vets.

JL - You certainly sound like you know a lot about this, though I question your response to zen. I understand there is a whole sect of Buddhists who think zen people are the devil, which obviously makes them wrong in my book. I'm not a Buddhist, though I respect their contemplations. I'm not a Hindu either, and I admire them. I have been called a Taoist Roman Catholic Pagan, which is why I thought Asherman's comment so interesting.

Setanta -- I'm not sure what you mean. Language and reality not interesting to you? You mean whether time is real and that sort of thing? These numinous experiences we're discussing are not unreal at all. They're hyper-real, if that's a term that means anything to you or anyone else. It means a lot to me. The experiences are difficult to discuss with language but not impossible.

Dream - Sounds like a fantastic experience... you must be a good swimmer! I think I'd be afraid to be so far away from shore. I do love to float effortlessly and have sunlight and its watery reflections surround me with mesmerizing light. It is very soothing.

Steve. What? I know you were posting to a specific statement, but I can't tell which one.

I wasn't referring to "numinous" experiences--earlier in this thread i'd written that i'd experienced epiphanies . . . or something very like . . . I was simply getting a little tired of others trying to set the terms for us all in this, or any other discussion, by a didactic statement about the relationship between reality and language . . . for my purposes, reality is what i am able to perceive, and it is upon this basis that i proceed with my life. I'm always willing to discuss discrete points of reality with other ("Is that a rock." "Dunno, lemme hit ya in the head, an' we'll see."), but i very quickly tire of others pontificating (which is not what i'm saying happened here) about reality not being reality, or about how language and cognition somehow warp or misrepresent reality. Here, lemme hit ya in the head with this here rock, an' show ya what i mean . . .

Oh, come over here Setanta, and have a drink, for Pete's sake, and quit trying to hit people on the head with rocks! I'm feeling loopy. Just got my haircut and the salon was having a party. So it was champagne before noon. THAT'S not like me!!!

I think it may be easy for some religions to assume that only THEY get to have numinous experiences. I'm here to tell you it is not so. Athiests get these feelings too. It may feel religious and can be most easily explained through religion, but I think there is a real source for this, not magic, not a godhead, except in the sense of a universal power.

spirituality and religion
Setanta, on the basis of what you say about rocks and reality, I would categorize you as what is known in philosophy as a "naive realist." This is not meant as a put down; it is a technical category in epistemology. I think you would benefit from and enjoy looking it up in a philosophy textbook. By the way, I also am a naive realist in my everyday life and thinking--as I think virtually everyone is--but I am not in my more technical/theoretical perspectives.

I don't categorize myself as anything in particular, but in my life, the most intense experiences have come to me when I wasn't looking for them. A passage in a book, the colors of the sun through leaves, playing a passage on the violin, or compassion for a person in a particular situation have all caused what I would call a numinous experience.

Please don't think I'm joking about this, ...but the first time I had an O was that type of experience. I didn't know what it was, but it involved my whole body and mind in a way that hasn't happened since that innocent first time.

<smile> Well, I do think it is around all the time and we just need to tap into it when we will. Nice that you play the violin. A lovely instrument.

As to labels or categories... they become a little absurd in the nature of things, don't they?

I believe that somethings I do, including being silent a lot, singing loudly in the shower and out, waking up early, and being very free in what I can do... I give myself more opportunities to be a part of it. More so perhaps than others who have more to keep them busy.

Music. Nature. Silence. Beauty. Joy. Love. Peace.

It is all pretty good.

spirituality and religion
Dream2020, and I'm sure we all wish you many more of such wonderful experiences. I get mine mainly from the enjoyment of classical music and art works (when I'm receptive to them). But I do think that religion (churchianity) and "spirituality" (a word I've come not to like much) involves more of the mundane everyday. When we look for satoris, epiphanies, openings, ecstasies, etc. (which are all nice to have) in the spirit of replacing everyday experience (maya) with something else, something grander, then we have mortgaged our lives to some future moment of "liberation" from them. To me liberation must be from exalted ideals against which we compare our everyday (everysecond) lives. Zen, as I understand it, talks about satori and liberation, but there is the profound subtlty that if you pursue them you keep yourself from them. Maya=Nirvana. To run from the former is to deny the latter. In other words, we must not treat our life as a bad dream that must be converted, "spiritually" into a good dream. We must simply wake up (perhaps by means of meditation) to see what's actually happening. That's why, I think, they call Gautama The Awakened One.

spirtuality and religion
Now that I've rinsed the soap out of my mouth, yes, Piffka, it is a joy. Too bad advancing age has brought some osteoarthritis to one finger of each hand and tendenitis in the right shoulder--makes playing a bit painful. But such pain is worth the price.

Reading through the posts I am struck by JLNs statement that language is the problem, surely it is and always will be in such matters.

Hey Boss, naive realist is ok by me . . . LMAO . . . espitemology is one of those subjects about which i believe the practioners of the discipline () need to exhibit a good deal of humility, and gratitude that society allows them a cut of the excess production of necessaries--giventhe dubious value of their contribution. I worked for many years as a secretary in the state universities civil service system of a mid-western state (unmentioned to protect the guilty, myself included). In one department in which i worked, we were the long-suffering victims of a pack of wild, completely uncivilized semioticians. Now theres some useless jaw exercise for ya. How lucky for them the state was willing to provide them such a good income; how self-righteously enraged they were, when, during state-wide budget cuts, the number of graduate assistants was reduced, and they were required to actually speak to undergraduates, being so obliged because they were told their jobs had become dependent upon teaching several units of actual course instruction each semester. The wailing and gnashing of teeth was a rare treat indeed.