Have you ever experienced the numinous?

Piffka, I chose the most forlorn viIsage I could find. I'm not sure what I liked best the overlong probboscis or the bags under the eyes. Who is this lonesome Bob, and what does he have to do with the niminous? Can we please stick to the point.

I am remembering one of the many trips
I have made in recent years to spend a few
weeks camping in my tent - alone. I like to
use at least 4 (maybe 5 if I want to really
be luxurious) eggcrate mattresses to make
my bed, & bring along at least 10 to 12 books,
make reservations in the Great Smoky Mtn Nat'l
Park - for the Elkmont (TN) or Smokemont (NC)
campgrounds, since they both have a small
river running right alongside them, & if I am
lucky, which is often the case, I can get a tent
site right next to the river. Listening to the sounds
from that that gamboling river at night are a
pure slice of heaven to me.
*I NEED to go alone at times. I need a
certain amount of solitude, time with myself
only .. to stay mentally healthy. If I do not
get my "quota" of alone time, I suffer from
the lack of it & become very very cranky.
*ALL the women at work thought I was nuts
going off to the mountains by myself, all alone.
What if a bear happened by?
*I HAVE had that happen, but ONLY
because some fool 20 feet down from my
campsite was breaking ALL the rules. This
is bear habitat, there is no cooking allowed
after dark & all food must be stored within
your camper, or trunk, or hung up high enough
in a tree that a bear can't get to it.
*In this instance, the bear just proceeded
to rip their screened cooking tent to shreds,
ate whatever he could find, then lumbered
off towards the woods. But, these crazy fools
all got into their cars, and drove around the
campsite - honking their horns and pretty soon
there was a hole line of them harassing the poor
bear. It was autumn and bears know they need
alot of fat to get them through the winter, so they
will break into dumpsters if they can to get food.
*This would never be a problem if campers
followed the rules, and never cooked or left
food out after dark. VERY sad for the bears.
*One night, in a site next to the river, I woke
up at around 2AM, got up & out of the tent,
looking for clear skies, or cloudy. The sky was
so clear and the moon was so full, it felt almost
like daylight! My fire had almost died out, so I
put a small piece of wood on the fire, and just
sat there in my folding rocking chair, listening to
my river sounds, and enjoying the moon - I
could feel myself, soaking it all up & storing it
for a day when I need a beautiful memory to
sustain me.
*I remember having the feeling that this night
was just for me. Not a soul seemed to be stirring
anywhere else nearby. Just me, the moon and
the river. It is SUCH a precious memory. I know
I will never forget it.

Hazlitt... just for the record - it's spelled Barnes & Noble and numinous. I will look for the book.... Thanks. I admit, my greatest joy was finding a typo in the New Yorker... it was a double word.

But Lonesome Bob? I'm surprised you don't know him. Well, here's a hint....

"The man is Jewish after all. Possibly the greatest living artist in the West."

http://www.bobdylan.com/

Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

_____________

Babs -- I think in general, you can hardly have a touch of numinous unless you are alone and haven't spoken for hours. At least that is the way for me. Some people say that they feel it in a church. That happened once but it was a long service and incense and pennants were involved.

I think that the stream you mention, or meditating, or staying near a beautiful point of nature is a more likely source. Attacking bears, however, can hardly be less numinous!

Well, yes, now that you jog my memory, of which surprisingly little remains, I do know who Lonesome Bob is.

If he's lonesome, it's his own damned fault, that boy's got a personality like a briar patch . . .

Do you mean Dylan or Hazlitt???

Dylan, i don't know Hazlitt well enough to insult him . . . yet . . .

Oh. OK. I thought so. But does that mean you don't like his songs?

At least he's lonesome, which is what the numinous seems to be about (aboot, eh?).

Mr. Hazlitt, I didn't mean any harm in asking. I really thought your avatar might be B.Dylan and that you would recognize his nickname. Check out Google images for Dylan, there are plenty and he is frequently in just such a position, looking down and to the right, sad and lonely (and not that pretty).

I think music, especially that which you have loved in the past or is hypnotic can bring back memories that may create a feeling of the numinous or at least feelings of near-ecstasy. For example, the sounding of a gong, a bamboo flute or a singing bowl can be exquisite.

The experience is not one of lonliness, or the sadness than the term implies. Rather, it is quite the opposit of separateness. The self is lost in the totality of the All. Time and space are meaningless concepts. Though the experience may last only a fleeting moment in objective time, the subjective experience is eternal. Loss of self can be quite frightening to some, but I believe that is the exception. During the experience, all knowledge is available, though Understanding makes it irrelavant. The Laws of Physics are transcended, though the purity of mathematics is unsullied.

How does one step beyond the mundane into this peak experience? There are at least two approaches, though both penultimate states are the same. One may through concentration and focus upon a single "point" attain a state where normal discursive thought ceases to exist. This requires great self-discipline and may take a very long time -- in objective terms. The second approach to the experience is spontaneous. One may be "lost" in revery, or focused tightly on doing something, and all of a sudden there the Experience just happens. In both cases, the rational thinking part of our mind shuts down, and in its place there is Understanding.

Most of what is said about the experience is at best only an approximation of the direct experience. The experience is often associated with a sudden light, but the term Awakening is a better description. Once Awake, everything thereafter (in objective reality) will be different. Just as we will sometimes return to slumber when awakened too early before we would naturally cast off the dream world, so there is a tendancy to relapse into the world that existed before we opened our eyes to the Ultimate. In Ultimate Realtity there is no time and no space, so there is always time for us dream creatures to find our way back.

Exactly right. Not lonely from your self or from the universal, but still most frequently a separation from the madding crowd. I'd call it finding the sublime in the mundane world where I find myself conscious. If you are true to yourself, then you cannot ignore this either.

Asherman, You seem to have an excellent feel for this thing. I like what you mean to say about the awakening. Once known, it is not forgotten. I think it can be practiced as well, as Daoists and Zen Masters strive to do and which they extol to their students for good effect. I'm sure other seekers do the same.

I cannot speak to your ultimate reality but only the places I find myself. I feel time whooshing by me sometimes, but I am holding still. Conversely, I find the universe dropping away, but then I'm flowing in time. I don't think I lose them both.

I've been a Soto sect Buddhist since the early '60's.

People talk too much about this. Talk less and practice more. Pay attention!

Active participation in the world requires the active use of the intellectual part of our mind. We are caught up in reflection on the past, and planning for the future. Stress levels are heightened by competition and risk. We are so busy thinking and doing, that there is no opportunity for the mind to "connect" to the Universal.

Seclusion and quiet are more conducive to reaching the experience we're talking about. All of the senses need to be quiet.

BTW the Experience is the absence of suffering and the end toward which we strive. Because the experience is of limited duration in objective time, it is incomplete and serves best as a beacon toward which we steer.

Asherman, you seem to have an interesting and unique point of view on this. I've read a tiny bit about the Soto sect... you are a Zen Buddhist, but not one of the Kuan solvers. Your group practices sitting and meditation. It is not surprising that you believe people talk too much! I don't think we can talk and totally describe this feeling... we can talk around it, however, and I think it shows that it is a personal thing. Each of us experiences something different.

To my mind, the experience can be reached from a variety of ways. I have felt it when I'm doing Tai Chi, or actively walking. I've felt it when I'm sitting quietly, when I'm doing menial chores, and frequently while I'm with animals. I've never had it happen while I was in a city!

I think it is what Wordworth described in his Ode to Immortality: here are some highlights...

"Are yet a master-light of all our seeing;
Uphold us, cherish, and have power to make
Our noisy years seem moments in the being
Of the eternal Silence: truths that wake....

"Though inland far we be,
Our souls have sight of that immortal sea
Which brought us hither,
Can in a moment travel thither..."

"To me the meanest flower that blows can give
Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. "

Please don't misunderstand me, but one cannot have anything but "numinous" experiences. I was told by a zen monk many years ago that an elderly Japanese man came to a zen master (roshi) for relief of his confusion and anxiety. When he was brought into the master's room, he was greeted with a deep, long bow. Confused, he asked the master why he honored him so. The master said he was honoring the elderly man's enlightenment. The old man gasped, declaring that he was miserable. The master then said. "You don't like enlightenment?"

<deeply chuckling> Ahh, JL, I like that very much! The trick is to recognize it is enlightment. The light is always on.

experience the numinous
Piffka, yes to remove one's blinders in order to appreciate the light--but then, again, the light is also behind the blinders. To want other than what IS (experientially) right now, is to construe reality as not good enough. That is suffering, the kind the Buddha to show us how to abolish. At least that's my understanding, for what it's worth.

One of my teachers told me you could always know the Buddha; he would have a big belly and be laughing. Santa???

I do think, that "experiencing the numinous" means to live in the moment, to fully appreciate the beauty which surrounds us every day. I mentioned at the beginning that one of my most wonderful recent numinous experiences was letting a mouse out of my garbage can. Could it have been more mundane? But it was a truly beautiful moment, which I will probably remember until... well, until I no longer have a memory.

Pifka,

Actually that is Ho Tai you've described. Ho Tai worked in the kitchen that prepared food for the monks surrounding Bohidarma. Bodhidarma brought Mahayana Buddhism to South China. He is said to have sat in a cave doing sitting meditation so long that his legs withered away. Popular Japanese egg-shaped dolls that pop back into an upright position when pushed over are based on this Buddhist saint.

Anyway, Ho Tai was said to have experienced Enlightenment while practicing his culinary arts. He was known for his happy disposition and eccentric jolly behavior. Ho Tai was in the habit of carrying a great sack filled with goodies into the surrounding villages as gifts to the children. As is relatively common in Chinese folklore, Ho Tai was eventually elevated into Godhood and his image became a common fixture in Chinese temples along with other Buddhist, Taoist and Confucian icons. Ho Tai is somewhat a bit like Santa, but comes from a very different tradition. Ho Tai was a Buddhist, is regarded by many Buddhists as a Bodisatva, but isn't The Buddha any more than you or I.

from: http://www.taoism.net/stories/buddha.htm

The Buddha in Your Home

Once upon a time in ancient China, a young man by the name of Yang Fu said good-bye to his parents and embarked on a trip to Sichuan (more popular known as Szechwan). His goal was to visit the Bodhisattva Wuji (literally meaning "limitless" or "without boundary"). On his way there, he encountered an old monk.

(Bodhi means great awakening or enlightenment; sattva means "being." Bodhisattva therefore means someone who possesses great wisdom or compassion.)

"Where are you going?" the monk inquired. Yang Fu replied that he was going to study under Bodhisattva Wuji.

"Seeking the Bodhisattva cannot compare to seeking the Buddha," asserted the old man. Yang Fu agreed with this, for although Bodhisattva Wuji was a person of great wisdom, the Buddha was the absolute paragon of enlightenment for which there was no equal.

Yang Fu then asked the old monk where he could find Buddha, and the old monk surprised him by telling him that the Buddha was at that moment in the house he left not too long ago - his own home. Yang Fu wondered how he would recognize the Buddha. The old monk seemed to have the answer to that one as well:

"When you get home, you'll see someone wearing a blanket with shoes on backwards coming to greet you. Remember, that is the Buddha."

Something about the old monk's certainty convinced Yang Fu, and so he hurried home. By the time he got there, it was already the middle of the night.

His mother had already gone to bed, but when she heard her son knocking on the door, she was beside herself with happiness. Like all parents, she had been worried sick about her child's safety on such a long journey. She rushed out to greet him immediately. She grabbed her blanket rather than to put on a coat, and in her joyful haste was totally oblivious to the fact that she had put on her slippers the wrong way.

Yang Fu took one look at his elderly mother and saw the look of pure happiness on her face. Recalling to mind the monk's words, he became suddenly enlightened.

A wholesome thought from within the mind, a simple delight in a simple thing... these are the essence of Zen. They help us transcend the limits of our mortal selves and material obsessions. Something uncomplicated yet profound, like the croak of a frog, can cause us to suddenly experience a spiritual awakening or enlightenment... and win another piece of the puzzle known as Soul Growth.

spirituality and religion
As they say in the zen literature, Piffka: wash your mouth out. More so if you tell the truth than if you lie.