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Einstein: Nothing 'chosen' about the Jews

 
 
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2008 11:17 am
Foofie wrote:
One can be Jewish, and still might not have a clue about being Jewish. It all has to do with what degree of Jewishness one is raised in. And, it has to do with how one analyzes the topic. Some people do not really analyze their ethnicity. Some people even live outside of ethnic identities, so they might virtually become another ethnic identity.

And, I am not "speaking for the Jews." I was speaking for my own opinion; take it, or leave it.

Anyway, in my own mind I have only "minored" (not in a real curriculum) in "Jews." I have "majored" in "NYC ethnicities of the 1950's/1960's." Jews are only a subset.

If you want to know if I am Jewish, then you should have just asked. But then again, the easy way to discern that is just to ask me if I can pronounce "Channukah" correctly.

Regardless, I am busy developing a theory to meld Einstein's Theory of Relativity and the WASP image. I suspect that the space time continuum interacts with "WASP confidence" in a very esoteric mannner.

But actually, I believe, your premise about needing to be a particular ethnicity to truly understand it, is an incorrect premise. That premise means one can only understand the thoughts of a "victim" if one is part of that victim's group; and if one is part of a victim's group, one can then not understand the thoughts of the perpetrators against a victim. This premise totally invalidates many social sciences. False conclusion, I believe; it stems I believe from a "popular notion."


I would have asked if I wanted to know, believe me. I'm pointing out, out of experience, when I make a sweeping statement about a religion or an ethnic group then I am accountable for the statement-- especially if I am not a member of their tribe.

As for your opinion, it's all yours.

There is a world of difference between being an expert but not being of that origin and coming from that particular gene pool.

Victimhood? That's your agenda.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2008 12:09 pm
Foofie wrote:
And, where did you get the idea that intelligence is not inherited?


Where did you get the idea that it can be?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2008 05:51 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Foofie wrote:
And, where did you get the idea that intelligence is not inherited?


Where did you get the idea that it can be?


My readings over the years. Sure, nurture has an effect; however, nature does play a role. I believe a bigger role than people would like to admit. But, possibly running counter to using one's intelligence may be the society one is raised in. It is a matrix of variables. But, I do not discount inherited intelligence.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2008 05:59 pm
Gala wrote:

... I'm pointing out, out of experience, when I make a sweeping statement about a religion or an ethnic group then I am accountable for the statement-- especially if I am not a member of their tribe.

As for your opinion, it's all yours.

There is a world of difference between being an expert but not being of that origin and coming from that particular gene pool.

Victimhood? That's your agenda.


Where is victimhood? But, anyway, I came into this thread sort of late; did you take issue with all the knowledge about Jews that was being shared, by others, before I made my post? I just (in the thread) thought I read a lot about Jews have done this, or won that prize. Nothing about why they might have. Being Jewish (secular) I think my opinion could have cleared the air a little from the squabbling Gentiles. And, Jews are not a tribe, except for religious purposes. I have more in common with many white Protestants than with most Jews when it comes to my value system and politics.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2008 01:14 pm
Foofie wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Foofie wrote:
And, where did you get the idea that intelligence is not inherited?


Where did you get the idea that it can be?


My readings over the years. Sure, nurture has an effect; however, nature does play a role. I believe a bigger role than people would like to admit. But, possibly running counter to using one's intelligence may be the society one is raised in. It is a matrix of variables. But, I do not discount inherited intelligence.


I'm going to use different terms from you, because I'm beginning to see a flaw in the terms nature and nurture in the respect that most people use it. I will instead use genetic and environmental, partially because these are the terms scientists use when talking about certain traits.

All aspects of your body have a genetic component and an environmental component. Very few aspects are coded for by a single gene, hence they will have a larger environmental component.

There is no single gene for intelligence. All there are, are genes that code for the development of the brain and the differentiation of cells into the various cell-types you find in the brain. These interact with other genes, which in turn may be affected by environmental pressures. Overall, I'd say that intelligence is mostly environmental in cause and hence cannot be inherited. The only thing that can be inherited is the potential for intelligence, the potential to be as smart as your father or your mother.

I'd also like to point out that the spur of my latest argument against brahim would have been that if Jews aren't a race, then they are a group of people who share a cultural identity. Thing is, the list of Nobel laureates he posits is based on whether someone is descended from Jews or not. This would hence, include non-practising Jews and those who are only racially Jewish, if such a thing can be said. Hence, it is horribly inflated.
0 Replies
 
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2008 04:56 pm
Foofie wrote:
Gala wrote:

... I'm pointing out, out of experience, when I make a sweeping statement about a religion or an ethnic group then I am accountable for the statement-- especially if I am not a member of their tribe.

As for your opinion, it's all yours.

There is a world of difference between being an expert but not being of that origin and coming from that particular gene pool.

Victimhood? That's your agenda.


Where is victimhood? But, anyway, I came into this thread sort of late; did you take issue with all the knowledge about Jews that was being shared, by others, before I made my post? I just (in the thread) thought I read a lot about Jews have done this, or won that prize. Nothing about why they might have. Being Jewish (secular) I think my opinion could have cleared the air a little from the squabbling Gentiles. And, Jews are not a tribe, except for religious purposes. I have more in common with many white Protestants than with most Jews when it comes to my value system and politics.


I'm using the term tribe in a loose way, Irish, Muslim, they're all members of their own tribe regardless of how animal this may sound-- I saw some stuff written by others that wasn't too savory, but there was an element of truth to what they said.

Until your "outing" as a Jew all I picked up from what you wrote about them was from reading, not experience or genetics.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 06:22 pm
Gala wrote:
Until your "outing" as a Jew all I picked up from what you wrote about them was from reading, not experience or genetics.


What outing? I just said I was Jewish and secular. I didn't think it was essential to be identified as a Jew inorder to make my points have more or less credence. Should I have a yellow star as an avatar?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2008 06:38 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:


I'm going to use different terms from you, because I'm beginning to see a flaw in the terms nature and nurture in the respect that most people use it. I will instead use genetic and environmental, partially because these are the terms scientists use when talking about certain traits.


Do not forget epigenetic; since environment affects our epigenome.

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:


All aspects of your body have a genetic component and an environmental component. Very few aspects are coded for by a single gene, hence they will have a larger environmental component.


Why would a trait that requires more genes be more susceptible to the environment?

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:


There is no single gene for intelligence. All there are, are genes that code for the development of the brain and the differentiation of cells into the various cell-types you find in the brain. These interact with other genes, which in turn may be affected by environmental pressures. Overall, I'd say that intelligence is mostly environmental in cause and hence cannot be inherited. The only thing that can be inherited is the potential for intelligence, the potential to be as smart as your father or your mother.


And, what if one has two dunces for parents?

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:


I'd also like to point out that the spur of my latest argument against brahim would have been that if Jews aren't a race, then they are a group of people who share a cultural identity. Thing is, the list of Nobel laureates he posits is based on whether someone is descended from Jews or not. This would hence, include non-practising Jews and those who are only racially Jewish, if such a thing can be said. Hence, it is horribly inflated.


So, rather than prove that Jews are not inherently intellectually superior, perhaps one needs to prove that the "Jewish culture" is not superior to the western Christian culture in producing achievement oriented people as a percentage of its population. In my own opinion, I have given some credence to the thought that Judaism, as a culture, overcame its own pagan past of glorifying brawn over brains, but I wonder whether it is correct to say that Christianity has really overcome the pagan culture its adherents came from. Meaning Chritianity is a success as a religion, having converted so many people, but has it supplanted the old pagan culture? I think of American football, when I ask this question.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 04:44 am
Foofie wrote:
Why would a trait that requires more genes be more susceptible to the environment?


Sorry, no, you're right. I got confused between multi-genetic and genetic with environmental. But here is what I'm getting at. In a trait caused by multiple genes, each single gene is being acted on by environmental pressures.

Proteins coded from other genes activate or amplify expression of other genes. Those proteins form part of the environmental pressure on a single gene.

Quote:
And, what if one has two dunces for parents?


I don't know. You tell me. If two dunces can create a genius, then obviously, intelligence isn't inherited, which would undermine your argument.

Quote:
So, rather than prove that Jews are not inherently intellectually superior, perhaps one needs to prove that the "Jewish culture" is not superior to the western Christian culture in producing achievement oriented people as a percentage of its population. In my own opinion, I have given some credence to the thought that Judaism, as a culture, overcame its own pagan past of glorifying brawn over brains, but I wonder whether it is correct to say that Christianity has really overcome the pagan culture its adherents came from. Meaning Chritianity is a success as a religion, having converted so many people, but has it supplanted the old pagan culture? I think of American football, when I ask this question.


Well, certainly, if the Jews were such a chosen people, Israel would be producing most of the Nobel laureates, but it's not. Only Jews outside of Israel seem to do be doing this.

Western Christian culture?

Don't make me laugh. It is Western secular culture that is producing our greatest Nobel laureates, because no one is being suppressed by Christian dogma.

The USA which enshrines secularism is producing a large number of Nobel laureates, which suggests that though Christianity started us off on this road, ultimately secularism itself has received the torch and is carrying it forward.

Will Christianity take the torch back? Will Islam (once they get rid of their fundamentalists)? Maybe even Scientology. Who knows?
0 Replies
 
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 01:11 pm
Foofie wrote:
What outing? I just said I was Jewish and secular. I didn't think it was essential to be identified as a Jew inorder to make my points have more or less credence. Should I have a yellow star as an avatar?


You are talking about a specific religion stating personal opinions about them-- it's not as if you are quoting from the Talmud, The Old Testament, etc. In this case, it's in your interest to identify yourself as one of them, otherwise you'll be swept into the able2know annals of borderline antisemites.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 07:16 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Well, certainly, if the Jews were such a chosen people, Israel would be producing most of the Nobel laureates, but it's not. Only Jews outside of Israel seem to do be doing this.



Oh, by the way, when I refer to Jews, I am thinking of those people descended from Eastern European Jews that came to the U.S. between 1880 and 1905. One must have had an ancestor that lived on the Lower East Side in Manhattan.

So, we really shouldn't be discussing this topic, since I believe you are referring to all Jews, Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Sabras in Israel.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 07:18 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

I don't know. You tell me. If two dunces can create a genius, then obviously, intelligence isn't inherited, which would undermine your argument.



It is called a throwback. Not all throwback traits need be bad.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 12:23 pm
Foofie wrote:
Oh, by the way, when I refer to Jews, I am thinking of those people descended from Eastern European Jews that came to the U.S. between 1880 and 1905. One must have had an ancestor that lived on the Lower East Side in Manhattan.


Which, surely, would drastically limit brahmin's list and thus prove his contention is rather facetious.

Out of interest, regarding the intelligence inheritance issue, is there anything specific you read concerning this matter? Twin studies, perhaps?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 06:23 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Oh, by the way, when I refer to Jews, I am thinking of those people descended from Eastern European Jews that came to the U.S. between 1880 and 1905. One must have had an ancestor that lived on the Lower East Side in Manhattan.


Which, surely, would drastically limit brahmin's list and thus prove his contention is rather facetious.

Out of interest, regarding the intelligence inheritance issue, is there anything specific you read concerning this matter? Twin studies, perhaps?


Regarding Jews and their achievements. Since many of these achievements were made after WWII, is it possible that Christian guilt, over the Jewish Holocaust, resulted in a few awarded Jews to have been put in the correct position of leadership (over a study) to then get some achievement award? And, it may not be guilt over the Jewish Holocaust at all; could there have been a gentleman's agreement, of sorts, to make Jews not want to emigrate to Israel. Not a brain drain per se, but a drain of a group of people that motivates others to get off their tush, so to speak (keep the competition between groups)? I say this, since when it comes to a real superior intellect, I must look in the direction of WASP America.

As far as my readings, I do like Charles Dickens. But, in all seriousness, even though I believe intelligence is inherited, there is the "regression to the mean," so a few generations after a brilliant parent, the descendants can just be plain folk, I thought.

Lastly, I think this thread is off the mark, perhaps based on politeness, but it is not necessarily, I believe, whether Jews are that bright, but whether some Jews tend to believe that they are of some higher intellect, and that irritates some of those who might have issues regarding Jews. But, the reason for that occasional observation of Jews might be because truly bright Christians have insulated themselves in cloistered environments, and Jews, bright, or not so bright, get to rub elbows with the average or below average.
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cello
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2008 08:47 am
I don't believe at all that Jews are any brighter than other people, just that they are harder working maybe. Also, that they tend to concentrate in areas like medecine, science, etc. which may result in more of them being recognized in those fields.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 08:46 am
cello wrote:
I don't believe at all that Jews are any brighter than other people, just that they are harder working maybe. Also, that they tend to concentrate in areas like medecine, science, etc. which may result in more of them being recognized in those fields.


I do not believe that anyone can generalize correctly about any group of people, since generalizations are just that - generalizations. Additionally, so few people in the U.S. have any consistent involvement with Jews, as a community, that what many people believe/think about Jews is based on popular notions. Thank goodness that today that does not include a horn and tail, as it once did.

But, if one is a native New Yorker, of one of the old New York ethnicities (i.e., Irish, Italian, African-American), it is more likely, I believe, to have built up a body of observations that allows for more veracity in one's beliefs regarding Jews as a community and as individuals. This still then might include, perhaps, some positive and negative stereotypes. Many people who have little interaction with Jews, I believe, have only negative stereotypes to subscribe to. Those are the stereotypes that tend to get adopted by the popular culture, I believe.

But, is it not amazing that such a small group of people, in the three billion plus of this planet's humanity, are discussed so often? Interesting?

P.S. Higher intelligence, I believe, is actually a negative stereotype, since it then implies one should avoid/exclude Jews, since they are going to be too good at any competition in one's school, job, etc.
0 Replies
 
cello
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 09:40 am
It is because I don't think we should generalize because a few Jews are achievers to generalize that Jews are brighter. In every group of people, there are bright and less bright people. My observation regarding the areas of concentration comes from knowing a few Jewish students and hearing about them from university students, and also seeing how many doctors are Jewish compared to other doctors, proportionately.

Yes, I have asked myself why there are so many threads about Jews in this forum because I find it very strange. I think maybe because people are more interested to talk about them, for one reason or another which I don't know, than about the Chinese for example. When I looked at the Asia threads, there is only a short one covering the earthquakes in China which caused almost 70,000 deaths and rendered 1.4 million people homeless, making me wonder ...

I think higher intelligence is a positive trait, but employers/schools nowadays look for more than that. They look for well-rounded people. And believe me, I know many highly intelligent kids and they are not Jews. As you say, it is not everyone who lives in contact with the Jews. But Jews are only a small part of the whole community in which we, at least I, live. Maybe where you live people behave differently to Jews, but I find that in Canada, there is no bias, positive or negative, towards them. They are Canadians like we all are.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2008 07:31 pm
cello wrote:
It is because I don't think we should generalize because a few Jews are achievers to generalize that Jews are brighter. In every group of people, there are bright and less bright people. My observation regarding the areas of concentration comes from knowing a few Jewish students and hearing about them from university students, and also seeing how many doctors are Jewish compared to other doctors, proportionately.

Yes, I have asked myself why there are so many threads about Jews in this forum because I find it very strange. I think maybe because people are more interested to talk about them, for one reason or another which I don't know, than about the Chinese for example. When I looked at the Asia threads, there is only a short one covering the earthquakes in China which caused almost 70,000 deaths and rendered 1.4 million people homeless, making me wonder ...

I think higher intelligence is a positive trait, but employers/schools nowadays look for more than that. They look for well-rounded people. And believe me, I know many highly intelligent kids and they are not Jews. As you say, it is not everyone who lives in contact with the Jews. But Jews are only a small part of the whole community in which we, at least I, live. Maybe where you live people behave differently to Jews, but I find that in Canada, there is no bias, positive or negative, towards them. They are Canadians like we all are.


The U.S. is very lucky, in my opinion, to have Canada, and its people, on its northern border.
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