0
   

employment benefits inherent logic

 
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Mar, 2008 09:55 pm
fishin wrote:
Chumly wrote:
fishin wrote:
Chumly wrote:
To say that benefits are part of a tradition does not answer the germane query that being: what's the inherent logic behind employment benefits?


Do you really need that spelled out for you?
I think yes! Particularly within the context of my posted experience, but also as an argument of logic.....in its essence.


At one point in time (you could go back to the 1930s or so...) most people didn't have insurance - health or otherwise. If something happened you paid for it out of your own pocket. In North America there were no government health care systems either. You either paid it yourself or found some private charity to do so. And, of course, there was usually only one family member that was actually working so if they couldn't work the family went under...

These were the sorts of things those unions fought for back in their heyday. Initally they stared with things like a reasonable length to the work day, clean facilities, lunch breaks, etc... Then they moved on to the typical benefits package that most people have today.

Post-WWII when the economy picked up and employers were having a difficult time retaining employees they increased benefits packages to retain their better employees. In many cases employers offered the benefits as an incentive to their employees so that they wouldn't unionize. In the end pretty much every employer ended up offering benefits of some sort. (The bitch against unions here is that they have held up any changes to many of these even though it would benefit their own members to do so.)

As an element of logic it's pretty simple - you go looking for a job and you look at employer A, B and C. All 3 are interested in hiring you and they all offer you $15/hr to work for them with identical working conditions.

Employer A offers no benefits.

Employer B offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you.

Employer C offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you and any family members as well and short and long term disability insurance, reduced rate loans on home mortages and reimbursement for any college classes you take related to your job.

Which one would the average person go with?
Right, but as discussed, traditionalism as a modern rationale does not provide a logical basis for a benefit plan, further there is no "Employer D" option whereby the total inherent costs of the benefit plan are passed directly on to the employees to do as they see fit which may or may not be some sort of benefit plan in the context of an employee group or otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Mar, 2008 10:10 pm
Chumly, when I administered and negotiated benefits for a non-union company, we were able to select various options in a package. For example, twice yearly visits to the dentist cost x, once every nine months costs y, and once a year cost z. Add to that orthodontics, vision care, massage therapy, you name it... you could literally build the package you wanted. Where I worked, there were 30 employees, most of whom didn't have children and didn't need ortho, for example. Also, most were under 35, and vision care wasn't an issue. I would send out a questionnaire when the package came up for renewal and negotiate based on what the majority wanted. Over ten years, there was a real difference (people ageing, having kids, etc).

So, the point is, whomever is negotiating your benefits package has the option to and should give the people in a sizeable organization various options - A, B, C, D, etc. You don't have a choice to opt in, but you can choose the one that suits you. Our company was too small to do that, but we could certainly tailor it a lot.

When I was the President of our Union (and don't get me going on that - I'm with ehBeth - never, ever again!!!), we had the same situation. We negotiated with Management about what we wanted. I, personally, would have never used MOST of what was being bought, but our union was 1500 strong and they had the opportunity to vote for what they wanted, so that's what they got. In many unions, that doesn't happen. There's a committee that decides (the pension ctte, the benefits ctte, or the contract ctte) and they will TELL you what they get. They don't always tell you what you want to know and might not even tell you if they change carriers until after the deed is done.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 05:02 am
Chumly wrote:
fishin wrote:
Chumly wrote:
fishin wrote:
Chumly wrote:
To say that benefits are part of a tradition does not answer the germane query that being: what's the inherent logic behind employment benefits?


Do you really need that spelled out for you?
I think yes! Particularly within the context of my posted experience, but also as an argument of logic.....in its essence.


At one point in time (you could go back to the 1930s or so...) most people didn't have insurance - health or otherwise. If something happened you paid for it out of your own pocket. In North America there were no government health care systems either. You either paid it yourself or found some private charity to do so. And, of course, there was usually only one family member that was actually working so if they couldn't work the family went under...

These were the sorts of things those unions fought for back in their heyday. Initally they stared with things like a reasonable length to the work day, clean facilities, lunch breaks, etc... Then they moved on to the typical benefits package that most people have today.

Post-WWII when the economy picked up and employers were having a difficult time retaining employees they increased benefits packages to retain their better employees. In many cases employers offered the benefits as an incentive to their employees so that they wouldn't unionize. In the end pretty much every employer ended up offering benefits of some sort. (The bitch against unions here is that they have held up any changes to many of these even though it would benefit their own members to do so.)

As an element of logic it's pretty simple - you go looking for a job and you look at employer A, B and C. All 3 are interested in hiring you and they all offer you $15/hr to work for them with identical working conditions.

Employer A offers no benefits.

Employer B offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you.

Employer C offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you and any family members as well and short and long term disability insurance, reduced rate loans on home mortages and reimbursement for any college classes you take related to your job.

Which one would the average person go with?
Right, but as discussed, traditionalism as a modern rationale does not provide a logical basis for a benefit plan, further there is no "Employer D" option whereby the total inherent costs of the benefit plan are passed directly on to the employees to do as they see fit which may or may not be some sort of benefit plan in the context of an employee group or otherwise.


What is the difference between your "Employer D" and my "Employer A"?

If the employer isn't providing any benefits then the total cost of them is passed on to the employees.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 09:55 am
fishin wrote:
Chumly wrote:
fishin wrote:
Chumly wrote:
fishin wrote:
Chumly wrote:
To say that benefits are part of a tradition does not answer the germane query that being: what's the inherent logic behind employment benefits?


Do you really need that spelled out for you?
I think yes! Particularly within the context of my posted experience, but also as an argument of logic.....in its essence.


At one point in time (you could go back to the 1930s or so...) most people didn't have insurance - health or otherwise. If something happened you paid for it out of your own pocket. In North America there were no government health care systems either. You either paid it yourself or found some private charity to do so. And, of course, there was usually only one family member that was actually working so if they couldn't work the family went under...

These were the sorts of things those unions fought for back in their heyday. Initally they stared with things like a reasonable length to the work day, clean facilities, lunch breaks, etc... Then they moved on to the typical benefits package that most people have today.

Post-WWII when the economy picked up and employers were having a difficult time retaining employees they increased benefits packages to retain their better employees. In many cases employers offered the benefits as an incentive to their employees so that they wouldn't unionize. In the end pretty much every employer ended up offering benefits of some sort. (The bitch against unions here is that they have held up any changes to many of these even though it would benefit their own members to do so.)

As an element of logic it's pretty simple - you go looking for a job and you look at employer A, B and C. All 3 are interested in hiring you and they all offer you $15/hr to work for them with identical working conditions.

Employer A offers no benefits.

Employer B offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you.

Employer C offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you and any family members as well and short and long term disability insurance, reduced rate loans on home mortages and reimbursement for any college classes you take related to your job.

Which one would the average person go with?
Right, but as discussed, traditionalism as a modern rationale does not provide a logical basis for a benefit plan, further there is no "Employer D" option whereby the total inherent costs of the benefit plan are passed directly on to the employees to do as they see fit which may or may not be some sort of benefit plan in the context of an employee group or otherwise.


What is the difference between your "Employer D" and my "Employer A"?

If the employer isn't providing any benefits then the total cost of them is passed on to the employees.
From my general experience, my "Employer D" and your "Employer A" need not be the same as per your claim that "the total cost of them is passed on to the employees".

Witness the union sector, versus the non-union sector Electrician employers in the Lower Mainland of Vancouver.

The hourly wage is at present fairly similar (at least enough of the time to substantiate my claim), however the non-union sector's pension contributions (for one example) pale in comparison to the union sector's pension contributions.. I would add also that such contributions are wholly paid out by the union employers on the union member's behalf, and of which the union member makes no direct contribution, nor need he do so in any way, as some non-union companies do by having a dollar for dollar match or some such arrangement.

So again, from the specified perspective of my example there are indeed definitive differences between my "Employer D" and your "Employer A".

Thus one cannot automatically assume (as you have done) that "the total
cost of them is passed on to the employees."

BTW does anyone actually read all this nested-post-crap, or are we alone: "we few we brave few, we band of brothers" (or boneheads as the case may be)?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:33 am
chumley wrote :

Quote:
If we assume you are correct here then I suppose this then begs the question as to why people in single family dwellings don't band together on the same street (for example) to get a discount group rate.


good luck trying to get neighbours to agree on anything Rolling Eyes

btw we do have a kind of group insurance for automobile and home insurance through my former employer . since my former employer also owns a general insurance company , we can buy the insurance without commission - a saving of about 15-20 % .
under the old "co-op movement" it was also possible to buy insurance at lower cost but members usually had to do some of the admin work also .
credit unions are somewht similar and can often offer better rates than banks for loans and mortgage - but it requires a certain amount of work to evaluate all the pros and cons .
it all depends on how much time one wants to spend to sort everything out .
usually there is a choice between "tailor-made" and "one-size fits all" and it's up to the customer/employee/worker to decide . not often that one gets a free lunch - unless you are rich enoughto buy your own Laughing
hbg
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:52 am
The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) of British Columbia claims 5,000 members and on the face of it, it would seem getting a few neighbors to commit to a joint insurance policy would be a lot simpler than dealing with the wants / needs of 5,000 members when it comes to benefits / insurance.

I have not generally found that credit unions are more competitive than banks. At least not any more. Yes that seemed to be the 10 plus years ago (at least to some degree) but these days......ehh.

Can you provide examples whereby the credit unions can stomp the banks (hopefully where it matters to me in British Columbia)?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 11:08 am
chumley wrote :

Quote:
Can you provide examples whereby the credit unions can stomp the banks (hopefully where it matters to me in British Columbia)?


no idea about the B.C. situation .
benefits seem to vary from one to another , such as : dividends , death benefits of three times deposit etc .
of course , you usually have to become a member by keeping a certain amount in your account : NO FREE LUNCH Shocked
if you are rich enough , banks will give you a "private wealth counsellor" - but i haven't qualified YET - still hoping Laughing
hbg
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 11:26 am
I'm an index fund aficionado and balancing a portfolio is a rather simple affair in the context of growth versus income versus risk versus taxes and my bible "A Random Walk Down Wall Street" by Burton Gordon Malkiel!

I don't need no stinking' private wealth counselor to charge me a management expense ratio in excess of the low MER on index funds.

I don't need no stinking' private wealth counselor to churn my portfolio potentially exposing it to tax implications just to raise commissions.

But most to the point, I have yet to hear a merited claim as to the express logic of employment benefits versus increased wages (although fishin's been trying, and I appreciate that).

In fact, all the posts have been interesting, if not exactly on topic all the time, so much thanks to all!
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 12:49 pm
Chumly wrote:
From my general experience, my "Employer D" and your "Employer A" need not be the same as per your claim that "the total cost of them is passed on to the employees".

Witness the union sector, versus the non-union sector Electrician employers in the Lower Mainland of Vancouver.

The hourly wage is at present fairly similar (at least enough of the time to substantiate my claim), however the non-union sector's pension contributions (for one example) pale in comparison to the union sector's pension contributions.. I would add also that such contributions are wholly paid out by the union employers on the union member's behalf, and of which the union member makes no direct contribution, nor need he do so in any way, as some non-union companies do by having a dollar for dollar match or some such arrangement.

So again, from the specified perspective of my example there are indeed definitive differences between my "Employer D" and your "Employer A".


Errrr... what??? If your Employer D is paying your pension plan contributions then they are providing you with a benefit which doesn't fit into your own previous description.

Quote:
Thus one cannot automatically assume (as you have done) that "the total
cost of them is passed on to the employees."

Quite true. In that case they aren't passing it on. But they don't fit your description "whereby the total inherent costs of the benefit plan are passed directly on to the employees to do as they see fit" either.

Either an employer provides benefits or they don't. If they don't (my "Employer A" and your original "Employer D" decscription) then the total cost of obtaining the equeal of those benefits is passed on to the employee.


Quote:

BTW does anyone actually read all this nested-post-crap, or are we alone: "we few we brave few, we band of brothers" (or boneheads as the case may be)?


Some days I does, some days I doesn't. It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 01:05 pm
fishin wrote:
It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.


OK, i'll see what i can do about that.

It is rare indeed that any employer ever pays the entire cost of a benefit. I know benefits plan very well, both because i worked in the administrative side of hospitals after i got out of the Army Medical Corps, and because i have, for more than a decade, been a business manager for small businesses.

An employer whom i know who has a very generous attitude toward employee benefit program, and in addition to being a genuinely generous impulse, it is also a tax advantage. There is the further advantage that because he does not pay the highest prevailing wages in his industry, he still attracts a high quality of employee, because of the benefits program. (And, in all honesty, most people in that industry are hired without reference to any skills they possess at the time they are employed, and even skilled, experienced employees have a hard time getting employed at the highest prevailing wage rates.)

So, for example, he pays 100% of the cost of the health/dental/prescription medicine program. That, however, doesn't mean that he funds 100% of the costs associated with that program. The health plan, like almost all health plans in the United States, was an 80-20 hospitalization plan, with a hefty deductible; and an outpatient plan with a hefty deductible for each person covered in the plan. This type of plan is so common because it provides the most benefit to the employee with several dependents, and employers seek to attract and retain "stable" employees, such as heads of families usually are. For the single employee, the plan is a benefit, but it is unlikely that they will incur more than the deductible amount in medical bills in any given year. It's best part was the dental plan, which was a co-pay plan, which meant that rather than paying a deductible, which probably would have equaled the normal, annual cost of cleaning and x-rays, there was a schedule of payments from which the insurer paid a portion of every bill. The prescription medicine plan was a co-pay plan, as well.

So, the employer is paying 100% of the insurance premium, not 100% of the cost of health care for the employee and any dependents. This is not to denigrate the generosity of that employer--few employers provide group plans at no premium cost to the employee (many employers deduct the entire premium cost from the employee's wages, and all he or she enjoys is the discount from a group plan). There was also a retirement benefits program, which was voluntary, and into which the employee was able to put as much, or as little, money as he or she pleased. Even if the employee chose not to contribute, they were enrolled, because by the statutory limit date, the employer deposited an amount equal to 2% of the employee's gross pay each year. However, it was a standard before tax contribution plan, which was essentially unsupported by the employer. Certainly he made the 2% contribution each year, which was generous--but which he was not obliged to do. However, all the costs of the program were deducted from each employees account.

There really is no such thing as a free ride in benefits programs--at the least, it is very, very rare. In the mid-1970s, as an employee of state government, i had a Blue Cross/Blue Shield program, which paid 100% of outpatient and emergency care, and had an 80-20 plan with no deductible. That was the most generous health insurance plan i've ever seen. We had no dental coverage, however, and no prescription medicine plan. The glory days of "horn o' plenty" benefits plans such as unions were once, and briefly, able to negotiate are gone, and are unlikely ever to return.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:14 pm
fishin wrote:
Chumly wrote:
From my general experience, my "Employer D" and your "Employer A" need not be the same as per your claim that "the total cost of them is passed on to the employees".

Witness the union sector, versus the non-union sector Electrician employers in the Lower Mainland of Vancouver.

The hourly wage is at present fairly similar (at least enough of the time to substantiate my claim), however the non-union sector's pension contributions (for one example) pale in comparison to the union sector's pension contributions.. I would add also that such contributions are wholly paid out by the union employers on the union member's behalf, and of which the union member makes no direct contribution, nor need he do so in any way, as some non-union companies do by having a dollar for dollar match or some such arrangement.

So again, from the specified perspective of my example there are indeed definitive differences between my "Employer D" and your "Employer A".


Errrr... what??? If your Employer D is paying your pension plan contributions then they are providing you with a benefit which doesn't fit into your own previous description.

Quote:
Thus one cannot automatically assume (as you have done) that "the total
cost of them is passed on to the employees."

Quite true. In that case they aren't passing it on. But they don't fit your description "whereby the total inherent costs of the benefit plan are passed directly on to the employees to do as they see fit" either.

Either an employer provides benefits or they don't. If they don't (my "Employer A" and your original "Employer D" decscription) then the total cost of obtaining the equeal of those benefits is passed on to the employee.


Quote:

BTW does anyone actually read all this nested-post-crap, or are we alone: "we few we brave few, we band of brothers" (or boneheads as the case may be)?


Some days I does, some days I doesn't. It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.
I used the pension as an example in the same way I used glasses as an example. Please read my first post and you'll see my "own previous description" is an example.

However, if it matters to your views of the discussion at hand, I think it would be quite fair to say that the non-union benefit package in substantially weaker than the union benefit package, even though the wages are, as discussed, somewhat similar at the moment.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:24 pm
Setanta wrote:
fishin wrote:
It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.


OK, i'll see what i can do about that.

It is rare indeed that any employer ever pays the entire cost of a benefit. I know benefits plan very well, both because i worked in the administrative side of hospitals after i got out of the Army Medical Corps, and because i have, for more than a decade, been a business manager for small businesses.

An employer whom i know who has a very generous attitude toward employee benefit program, and in addition to being a genuinely generous impulse, it is also a tax advantage. There is the further advantage that because he does not pay the highest prevailing wages in his industry, he still attracts a high quality of employee, because of the benefits program. (And, in all honesty, most people in that industry are hired without reference to any skills they possess at the time they are employed, and even skilled, experienced employees have a hard time getting employed at the highest prevailing wage rates.)

So, for example, he pays 100% of the cost of the health/dental/prescription medicine program. That, however, doesn't mean that he funds 100% of the costs associated with that program. The health plan, like almost all health plans in the United States, was an 80-20 hospitalization plan, with a hefty deductible; and an outpatient plan with a hefty deductible for each person covered in the plan. This type of plan is so common because it provides the most benefit to the employee with several dependents, and employers seek to attract and retain "stable" employees, such as heads of families usually are. For the single employee, the plan is a benefit, but it is unlikely that they will incur more than the deductible amount in medical bills in any given year. It's best part was the dental plan, which was a co-pay plan, which meant that rather than paying a deductible, which probably would have equaled the normal, annual cost of cleaning and x-rays, there was a schedule of payments from which the insurer paid a portion of every bill. The prescription medicine plan was a co-pay plan, as well.

So, the employer is paying 100% of the insurance premium, not 100% of the cost of health care for the employee and any dependents. This is not to denigrate the generosity of that employer--few employers provide group plans at no premium cost to the employee (many employers deduct the entire premium cost from the employee's wages, and all he or she enjoys is the discount from a group plan). There was also a retirement benefits program, which was voluntary, and into which the employee was able to put as much, or as little, money as he or she pleased. Even if the employee chose not to contribute, they were enrolled, because by the statutory limit date, the employer deposited an amount equal to 2% of the employee's gross pay each year. However, it was a standard before tax contribution plan, which was essentially unsupported by the employer. Certainly he made the 2% contribution each year, which was generous--but which he was not obliged to do. However, all the costs of the program were deducted from each employees account.

There really is no such thing as a free ride in benefits programs--at the least, it is very, very rare. In the mid-1970s, as an employee of state government, i had a Blue Cross/Blue Shield program, which paid 100% of outpatient and emergency care, and had an 80-20 plan with no deductible. That was the most generous health insurance plan i've ever seen. We had no dental coverage, however, and no prescription medicine plan. The glory days of "horn o' plenty" benefits plans such as unions were once, and briefly, able to negotiate are gone, and are unlikely ever to return.


I benefit (pun) from three unions:

International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
Hospitals Employee's Union (HEU)
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW)

Add that to Canada's socialized medical and I don't recall paying a deducible on anything (or if there was it was unconcernedly small). One union tops up what the other pays the bulk of and Canada's socialized medical supplies the foundation.

If you feel like responding to the questions as posed by my first few posts, have fun, no one else seems to want to chew on it except good ol' fishin'.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:27 pm
My remarks were with regard to the situation in the United States. If you want to limit your discussion to the situation in Canada, which is profoundly different, fine--you and Mame and Beth can discuss it. However, there are ten times as many people in the United States, unions no longer have the power there that they once did, and the cost of medical has skyrocketed, out of all proportion to the actual cost of providing services, in the last 40 years. It is germane to bring these things up, unless and until you specify that you only want to discuss the "logic" of benefits packages in Canada. In that case, bye . . . not interested.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:29 pm
Chumly wrote:
Setanta wrote:
fishin wrote:
It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.


OK, i'll see what i can do about that.

It is rare indeed that any employer ever pays the entire cost of a benefit. I know benefits plan very well, both because i worked in the administrative side of hospitals after i got out of the Army Medical Corps, and because i have, for more than a decade, been a business manager for small businesses.

An employer whom i know who has a very generous attitude toward employee benefit program, and in addition to being a genuinely generous impulse, it is also a tax advantage. There is the further advantage that because he does not pay the highest prevailing wages in his industry, he still attracts a high quality of employee, because of the benefits program. (And, in all honesty, most people in that industry are hired without reference to any skills they possess at the time they are employed, and even skilled, experienced employees have a hard time getting employed at the highest prevailing wage rates.)

So, for example, he pays 100% of the cost of the health/dental/prescription medicine program. That, however, doesn't mean that he funds 100% of the costs associated with that program. The health plan, like almost all health plans in the United States, was an 80-20 hospitalization plan, with a hefty deductible; and an outpatient plan with a hefty deductible for each person covered in the plan. This type of plan is so common because it provides the most benefit to the employee with several dependents, and employers seek to attract and retain "stable" employees, such as heads of families usually are. For the single employee, the plan is a benefit, but it is unlikely that they will incur more than the deductible amount in medical bills in any given year. It's best part was the dental plan, which was a co-pay plan, which meant that rather than paying a deductible, which probably would have equaled the normal, annual cost of cleaning and x-rays, there was a schedule of payments from which the insurer paid a portion of every bill. The prescription medicine plan was a co-pay plan, as well.

So, the employer is paying 100% of the insurance premium, not 100% of the cost of health care for the employee and any dependents. This is not to denigrate the generosity of that employer--few employers provide group plans at no premium cost to the employee (many employers deduct the entire premium cost from the employee's wages, and all he or she enjoys is the discount from a group plan). There was also a retirement benefits program, which was voluntary, and into which the employee was able to put as much, or as little, money as he or she pleased. Even if the employee chose not to contribute, they were enrolled, because by the statutory limit date, the employer deposited an amount equal to 2% of the employee's gross pay each year. However, it was a standard before tax contribution plan, which was essentially unsupported by the employer. Certainly he made the 2% contribution each year, which was generous--but which he was not obliged to do. However, all the costs of the program were deducted from each employees account.

There really is no such thing as a free ride in benefits programs--at the least, it is very, very rare. In the mid-1970s, as an employee of state government, i had a Blue Cross/Blue Shield program, which paid 100% of outpatient and emergency care, and had an 80-20 plan with no deductible. That was the most generous health insurance plan i've ever seen. We had no dental coverage, however, and no prescription medicine plan. The glory days of "horn o' plenty" benefits plans such as unions were once, and briefly, able to negotiate are gone, and are unlikely ever to return.


I benefit (pun) from three unions:

International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
Hospitals Employee's Union (HEU)
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW)

Add that to Canada's socialized medical and I don't recall paying a deducible on anything (or if there was it was unconcernedly small). One union tops up what the other pays the bulk of and Canada's socialized medical supplies the foundation.

I don't have direct experience with US benefits but in Canada my circumstances are not uncommon.

If you feel like responding to the questions as posed by my first few posts, have fun, no one else seems to want to chew on it except good ol' fishin'.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:30 pm
To add to Fishin's remarks in response to your initial post--employers are able to employ the benefits equivalent of economies of scale when providing health care benefits, because of access to group coverage and negotiated treatment rates. This may not apply in Canada, but, once again, if that is how you intend to limit the discussion, your focus becomes sufficiently narrow that it is unlikely to attract very many interested posters.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:34 pm
Looks like I double posted.

In any case you can respond as you see fit in the context you consider apropos. Funnily enough, I have to see the doctor as I hurt my thumb at work (WorkSafeBC claim perhaps). Well maybe not so funny.

I'll check in later for an updated prognosis / diagnosis on the health of the post.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 02:40 pm
I have responded in a context which i consider a propos . . . however, i have to add that i usually don't respond to threads like this by you because you so often seem not to know what the hell you're talking about. In your initial post, you claim to be represented by three separate collective bargaining organizations (i.e., "unions"). I don't believe that, and suspect that you don't understand the basic situation. You might qualify to be represented by any one of three collective bargaining organizations, but you'd have to chose which one you wished to join.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 03:12 pm
Hogwash.

I am an electrician and as such:

I now work for a large aerospace firm in that capacity; I am a member of the IAMAW and have received the benefits of reimbursement for safety shoes and custom ear plugs.

I have been a member of the IBEW local 213 for 30 years. It's a union hiring hall. I worked out of that union in 2007 for the Shipyards and also downtown Vancouver for a new supermarket. My wife topped up her glasses costs by using both the IBEW and HEU.

My wife works for the hospitals in administration. She is a member of the HEU. I am covered on her plan as well as the aforementioned two for a number of benefits. We may be seeing a counselor for a personal matter and the HEU will cover this.

It should be noted that my benefits have now ran out with respect to the IBEW because I now work for the large aerospace firm in that capacity, and I see no reason to triplicate the benefits.

I am still an active dues paying member of the IBEW local 213 and should I desire I can part from the aerospace firm and thus the IAMAW's benefits and take a call from the hall thus accruing benefits from the IBEW.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 03:24 pm
You didn't explain this in your post. You wrote:

Quote:
Of the three unions I am involved with, neither the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW), the Hospitals Employee's Union (HEU), or the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW) have this option.


You didn't write that you have received, at different times, benefits associated with one or more of those organizations, and that one of them derives from your wife's employment. You wrote as though you personally were involved in those three organization. It remains the case that you could not be represented by more than one collective bargaining unit at one time.

It also matters little if the confusion which arises when you post a topic comes from your own mistakes, or a failure on your part to clearly explain situations to which you refer. Whichever is the case, i have learned to be wary of the claims you make, and upon which you base statements. This one seems to me to be just one more case in which you make a dubious claim, or seem to make a dubious claim. That is why i did not respond until well into this thread. Other threads of yours i have simply avoided responding to at all.

This thread could have been over in one post. The reason why it is better for employers to provide group plans for medical benefits, and such benefits as eye glasses or safety glasses is economy of scale. Employers can get group plan benefits far cheaper than it would be for them to provide you sufficient pay to go out to buy your glasses as a private individual.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 03:30 pm
Chumly wrote:
Why should my employer force me to buy something with what is essentially my own money, and of which I can do without or buy as and if I want?


Because they want insurance on something they consider valuable, their employees, and are often very willing to pay for it to help ensure it happens.

They are not, however, willing to pay extra for Chumly to spend on beer, toys etc.

They aren't "forcing" you to do anything. They are willing to pay for something they consider to be good for them. It's not unlike how scholarships don't give you the cash to use on whatever you want and they aren't "forcing" people to go to college either.
0 Replies
 
 

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