Chumly wrote:fishin wrote:I think yes! Particularly within the context of my posted experience, but also as an argument of logic.....in its essence.Chumly wrote:To say that benefits are part of a tradition does not answer the germane query that being: what's the inherent logic behind employment benefits?
Do you really need that spelled out for you?
At one point in time (you could go back to the 1930s or so...) most people didn't have insurance - health or otherwise. If something happened you paid for it out of your own pocket. In North America there were no government health care systems either. You either paid it yourself or found some private charity to do so. And, of course, there was usually only one family member that was actually working so if they couldn't work the family went under...
These were the sorts of things those unions fought for back in their heyday. Initally they stared with things like a reasonable length to the work day, clean facilities, lunch breaks, etc... Then they moved on to the typical benefits package that most people have today.
Post-WWII when the economy picked up and employers were having a difficult time retaining employees they increased benefits packages to retain their better employees. In many cases employers offered the benefits as an incentive to their employees so that they wouldn't unionize. In the end pretty much every employer ended up offering benefits of some sort. (The bitch against unions here is that they have held up any changes to many of these even though it would benefit their own members to do so.)
As an element of logic it's pretty simple - you go looking for a job and you look at employer A, B and C. All 3 are interested in hiring you and they all offer you $15/hr to work for them with identical working conditions.
Employer A offers no benefits.
Employer B offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you.
Employer C offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you and any family members as well and short and long term disability insurance, reduced rate loans on home mortages and reimbursement for any college classes you take related to your job.
Which one would the average person go with?
fishin wrote:Right, but as discussed, traditionalism as a modern rationale does not provide a logical basis for a benefit plan, further there is no "Employer D" option whereby the total inherent costs of the benefit plan are passed directly on to the employees to do as they see fit which may or may not be some sort of benefit plan in the context of an employee group or otherwise.Chumly wrote:fishin wrote:I think yes! Particularly within the context of my posted experience, but also as an argument of logic.....in its essence.Chumly wrote:To say that benefits are part of a tradition does not answer the germane query that being: what's the inherent logic behind employment benefits?
Do you really need that spelled out for you?
At one point in time (you could go back to the 1930s or so...) most people didn't have insurance - health or otherwise. If something happened you paid for it out of your own pocket. In North America there were no government health care systems either. You either paid it yourself or found some private charity to do so. And, of course, there was usually only one family member that was actually working so if they couldn't work the family went under...
These were the sorts of things those unions fought for back in their heyday. Initally they stared with things like a reasonable length to the work day, clean facilities, lunch breaks, etc... Then they moved on to the typical benefits package that most people have today.
Post-WWII when the economy picked up and employers were having a difficult time retaining employees they increased benefits packages to retain their better employees. In many cases employers offered the benefits as an incentive to their employees so that they wouldn't unionize. In the end pretty much every employer ended up offering benefits of some sort. (The bitch against unions here is that they have held up any changes to many of these even though it would benefit their own members to do so.)
As an element of logic it's pretty simple - you go looking for a job and you look at employer A, B and C. All 3 are interested in hiring you and they all offer you $15/hr to work for them with identical working conditions.
Employer A offers no benefits.
Employer B offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you.
Employer C offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you and any family members as well and short and long term disability insurance, reduced rate loans on home mortages and reimbursement for any college classes you take related to your job.
Which one would the average person go with?
Chumly wrote:fishin wrote:Right, but as discussed, traditionalism as a modern rationale does not provide a logical basis for a benefit plan, further there is no "Employer D" option whereby the total inherent costs of the benefit plan are passed directly on to the employees to do as they see fit which may or may not be some sort of benefit plan in the context of an employee group or otherwise.Chumly wrote:fishin wrote:I think yes! Particularly within the context of my posted experience, but also as an argument of logic.....in its essence.Chumly wrote:To say that benefits are part of a tradition does not answer the germane query that being: what's the inherent logic behind employment benefits?
Do you really need that spelled out for you?
At one point in time (you could go back to the 1930s or so...) most people didn't have insurance - health or otherwise. If something happened you paid for it out of your own pocket. In North America there were no government health care systems either. You either paid it yourself or found some private charity to do so. And, of course, there was usually only one family member that was actually working so if they couldn't work the family went under...
These were the sorts of things those unions fought for back in their heyday. Initally they stared with things like a reasonable length to the work day, clean facilities, lunch breaks, etc... Then they moved on to the typical benefits package that most people have today.
Post-WWII when the economy picked up and employers were having a difficult time retaining employees they increased benefits packages to retain their better employees. In many cases employers offered the benefits as an incentive to their employees so that they wouldn't unionize. In the end pretty much every employer ended up offering benefits of some sort. (The bitch against unions here is that they have held up any changes to many of these even though it would benefit their own members to do so.)
As an element of logic it's pretty simple - you go looking for a job and you look at employer A, B and C. All 3 are interested in hiring you and they all offer you $15/hr to work for them with identical working conditions.
Employer A offers no benefits.
Employer B offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you.
Employer C offers you medical, dental and vision insurance for you and any family members as well and short and long term disability insurance, reduced rate loans on home mortages and reimbursement for any college classes you take related to your job.
Which one would the average person go with?
What is the difference between your "Employer D" and my "Employer A"?
If the employer isn't providing any benefits then the total cost of them is passed on to the employees.
If we assume you are correct here then I suppose this then begs the question as to why people in single family dwellings don't band together on the same street (for example) to get a discount group rate.
Can you provide examples whereby the credit unions can stomp the banks (hopefully where it matters to me in British Columbia)?
From my general experience, my "Employer D" and your "Employer A" need not be the same as per your claim that "the total cost of them is passed on to the employees".
Witness the union sector, versus the non-union sector Electrician employers in the Lower Mainland of Vancouver.
The hourly wage is at present fairly similar (at least enough of the time to substantiate my claim), however the non-union sector's pension contributions (for one example) pale in comparison to the union sector's pension contributions.. I would add also that such contributions are wholly paid out by the union employers on the union member's behalf, and of which the union member makes no direct contribution, nor need he do so in any way, as some non-union companies do by having a dollar for dollar match or some such arrangement.
So again, from the specified perspective of my example there are indeed definitive differences between my "Employer D" and your "Employer A".
Thus one cannot automatically assume (as you have done) that "the total
cost of them is passed on to the employees."
BTW does anyone actually read all this nested-post-crap, or are we alone: "we few we brave few, we band of brothers" (or boneheads as the case may be)?
It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.
Chumly wrote:From my general experience, my "Employer D" and your "Employer A" need not be the same as per your claim that "the total cost of them is passed on to the employees".
Witness the union sector, versus the non-union sector Electrician employers in the Lower Mainland of Vancouver.
The hourly wage is at present fairly similar (at least enough of the time to substantiate my claim), however the non-union sector's pension contributions (for one example) pale in comparison to the union sector's pension contributions.. I would add also that such contributions are wholly paid out by the union employers on the union member's behalf, and of which the union member makes no direct contribution, nor need he do so in any way, as some non-union companies do by having a dollar for dollar match or some such arrangement.
So again, from the specified perspective of my example there are indeed definitive differences between my "Employer D" and your "Employer A".
Errrr... what??? If your Employer D is paying your pension plan contributions then they are providing you with a benefit which doesn't fit into your own previous description.
Quote:Thus one cannot automatically assume (as you have done) that "the total
cost of them is passed on to the employees."
Quite true. In that case they aren't passing it on. But they don't fit your description "whereby the total inherent costs of the benefit plan are passed directly on to the employees to do as they see fit" either.
Either an employer provides benefits or they don't. If they don't (my "Employer A" and your original "Employer D" decscription) then the total cost of obtaining the equeal of those benefits is passed on to the employee.
Quote:
BTW does anyone actually read all this nested-post-crap, or are we alone: "we few we brave few, we band of brothers" (or boneheads as the case may be)?
Some days I does, some days I doesn't. It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.
fishin wrote:It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.
OK, i'll see what i can do about that.
It is rare indeed that any employer ever pays the entire cost of a benefit. I know benefits plan very well, both because i worked in the administrative side of hospitals after i got out of the Army Medical Corps, and because i have, for more than a decade, been a business manager for small businesses.
An employer whom i know who has a very generous attitude toward employee benefit program, and in addition to being a genuinely generous impulse, it is also a tax advantage. There is the further advantage that because he does not pay the highest prevailing wages in his industry, he still attracts a high quality of employee, because of the benefits program. (And, in all honesty, most people in that industry are hired without reference to any skills they possess at the time they are employed, and even skilled, experienced employees have a hard time getting employed at the highest prevailing wage rates.)
So, for example, he pays 100% of the cost of the health/dental/prescription medicine program. That, however, doesn't mean that he funds 100% of the costs associated with that program. The health plan, like almost all health plans in the United States, was an 80-20 hospitalization plan, with a hefty deductible; and an outpatient plan with a hefty deductible for each person covered in the plan. This type of plan is so common because it provides the most benefit to the employee with several dependents, and employers seek to attract and retain "stable" employees, such as heads of families usually are. For the single employee, the plan is a benefit, but it is unlikely that they will incur more than the deductible amount in medical bills in any given year. It's best part was the dental plan, which was a co-pay plan, which meant that rather than paying a deductible, which probably would have equaled the normal, annual cost of cleaning and x-rays, there was a schedule of payments from which the insurer paid a portion of every bill. The prescription medicine plan was a co-pay plan, as well.
So, the employer is paying 100% of the insurance premium, not 100% of the cost of health care for the employee and any dependents. This is not to denigrate the generosity of that employer--few employers provide group plans at no premium cost to the employee (many employers deduct the entire premium cost from the employee's wages, and all he or she enjoys is the discount from a group plan). There was also a retirement benefits program, which was voluntary, and into which the employee was able to put as much, or as little, money as he or she pleased. Even if the employee chose not to contribute, they were enrolled, because by the statutory limit date, the employer deposited an amount equal to 2% of the employee's gross pay each year. However, it was a standard before tax contribution plan, which was essentially unsupported by the employer. Certainly he made the 2% contribution each year, which was generous--but which he was not obliged to do. However, all the costs of the program were deducted from each employees account.
There really is no such thing as a free ride in benefits programs--at the least, it is very, very rare. In the mid-1970s, as an employee of state government, i had a Blue Cross/Blue Shield program, which paid 100% of outpatient and emergency care, and had an 80-20 plan with no deductible. That was the most generous health insurance plan i've ever seen. We had no dental coverage, however, and no prescription medicine plan. The glory days of "horn o' plenty" benefits plans such as unions were once, and briefly, able to negotiate are gone, and are unlikely ever to return.
Setanta wrote:fishin wrote:It is (to me) more useful when there are more people posting in the thread.
OK, i'll see what i can do about that.
It is rare indeed that any employer ever pays the entire cost of a benefit. I know benefits plan very well, both because i worked in the administrative side of hospitals after i got out of the Army Medical Corps, and because i have, for more than a decade, been a business manager for small businesses.
An employer whom i know who has a very generous attitude toward employee benefit program, and in addition to being a genuinely generous impulse, it is also a tax advantage. There is the further advantage that because he does not pay the highest prevailing wages in his industry, he still attracts a high quality of employee, because of the benefits program. (And, in all honesty, most people in that industry are hired without reference to any skills they possess at the time they are employed, and even skilled, experienced employees have a hard time getting employed at the highest prevailing wage rates.)
So, for example, he pays 100% of the cost of the health/dental/prescription medicine program. That, however, doesn't mean that he funds 100% of the costs associated with that program. The health plan, like almost all health plans in the United States, was an 80-20 hospitalization plan, with a hefty deductible; and an outpatient plan with a hefty deductible for each person covered in the plan. This type of plan is so common because it provides the most benefit to the employee with several dependents, and employers seek to attract and retain "stable" employees, such as heads of families usually are. For the single employee, the plan is a benefit, but it is unlikely that they will incur more than the deductible amount in medical bills in any given year. It's best part was the dental plan, which was a co-pay plan, which meant that rather than paying a deductible, which probably would have equaled the normal, annual cost of cleaning and x-rays, there was a schedule of payments from which the insurer paid a portion of every bill. The prescription medicine plan was a co-pay plan, as well.
So, the employer is paying 100% of the insurance premium, not 100% of the cost of health care for the employee and any dependents. This is not to denigrate the generosity of that employer--few employers provide group plans at no premium cost to the employee (many employers deduct the entire premium cost from the employee's wages, and all he or she enjoys is the discount from a group plan). There was also a retirement benefits program, which was voluntary, and into which the employee was able to put as much, or as little, money as he or she pleased. Even if the employee chose not to contribute, they were enrolled, because by the statutory limit date, the employer deposited an amount equal to 2% of the employee's gross pay each year. However, it was a standard before tax contribution plan, which was essentially unsupported by the employer. Certainly he made the 2% contribution each year, which was generous--but which he was not obliged to do. However, all the costs of the program were deducted from each employees account.
There really is no such thing as a free ride in benefits programs--at the least, it is very, very rare. In the mid-1970s, as an employee of state government, i had a Blue Cross/Blue Shield program, which paid 100% of outpatient and emergency care, and had an 80-20 plan with no deductible. That was the most generous health insurance plan i've ever seen. We had no dental coverage, however, and no prescription medicine plan. The glory days of "horn o' plenty" benefits plans such as unions were once, and briefly, able to negotiate are gone, and are unlikely ever to return.
I benefit (pun) from three unions:
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
Hospitals Employee's Union (HEU)
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW)
Add that to Canada's socialized medical and I don't recall paying a deducible on anything (or if there was it was unconcernedly small). One union tops up what the other pays the bulk of and Canada's socialized medical supplies the foundation.
I don't have direct experience with US benefits but in Canada my circumstances are not uncommon.
If you feel like responding to the questions as posed by my first few posts, have fun, no one else seems to want to chew on it except good ol' fishin'.
Of the three unions I am involved with, neither the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW), the Hospitals Employee's Union (HEU), or the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW) have this option.
Why should my employer force me to buy something with what is essentially my own money, and of which I can do without or buy as and if I want?