Spirituality

What about the opinion of an atheist?

Top five spirits:

http://www.thefiftybest.com/wine_enthusiast/wine_art/top5spirits.jpg

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Hmmm...then spirituality to an Atheist is Alcoholism?

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Spirituality-uality=spirit=our state of being

our state of being + uality= the condition of our state of being

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And yet Hawkeye, our state of being can mean many things to many different people. To an angry man with temper control problems it means being angry, and being a victim...to a woman in love it could mean a place of bliss with the other, to a professor it may mean an understanding and appreciation of life. And those are only examples I can think of off the top of my head.

What is spirit? There is certainly no scientific basis for it.

And what on earth is meant by 'being in a state of spirit', considering we are thinking creatures, and we have passions and feelings, genetic directives and hormonal and chemical drives? Is spirit just a state of imagination?

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Don't say I never do nuthin fer ya

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68051

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vikorr wrote:

What is spirit? There is certainly no scientific basis for it.

And what on earth is meant by 'being in a state of spirit', considering we are thinking creatures, and we have passions and feelings, genetic directives and hormonal and chemical drives? Is spirit just a state of imagination?

Science misses a lot....so what if science misses spirit??

I don't remember who figured this out: we don't know anything about out selves by ourselves. we are too close to ourselves to see ourselves. All that we know about ourselves we learn by what is reflected back to us by those around us. This is for instance why those who have been abused and feel worthless pick mates who will abuse them, the victim sees themselves through the abuser as who they think they are, a victim. The abuser-victim relationship feels right to the victim. When a victim is with someone who does not see them as a victim (with a nonabuser) they don't see themselves through their mates, and the victim lost. The victim tries to make the non abuser into an abuser, and if that fails the victim leaves.

SOOO, spirit is not a state of imagination because it is 100% known by interacting with the world around us. It is also not determined by us, I think all religions teach that our natures are God given or are with us at birth (genetics, chemical balance and so on not changeable by us). The condition of our state of being (spirituality) is determined by a combination of our nature (soul) and the extent to which we perfect our relationships, because it is by perfecting our relationships that we learn to see deeply into life. It is by perfecting our relationships that we learn who we are, what our nature is (if you are Zen).

Spirituality, our state of being, dances around the two poles of self awareness and relationships with other people. Self awareness and relationship are conpletely connected to each other. If you want to be good at one you have to be good at the other. This is why you find a spiritual person such as myself hanging out on the relationship forum. This is also why when ever a person is having a relationship problem the first thing we always do is to advise them to work on themselves.

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vikorr wrote:

Hmmm...then spirituality to an Atheist is Alcoholism?

If spirituality is connecting the above terms together, I'd rather not have any spirituality at all...

If spirituality is humorless, I'd rather not have any spirituality at all...

and so on..

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Hi Francis, it seems you have misunderstood - my reply to you was just a play on words definitions/associations.

-Spirit is to Spirituality, as Spirit (Alcohol) is to .....

Hawkeye wrote:

Science misses a lot....so what if science misses spirit??

Hi Hawkeye, my point was simply that you didn't appear to try to define spirit, which is what I was asking for 

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I don't remember who figured this out: we don't know anything about out selves by ourselves. we are too close to ourselves to see ourselves. All that we know about ourselves we learn by what is reflected back to us by those around us. This is for instance why those who have been abused and feel worthless pick mates who will abuse them, the victim sees themselves through the abuser as who they think they are, a victim. The abuser-victim relationship feels right to the victim. When a victim is with someone who does not see them as a victim (with a nonabuser) they don't see themselves through their mates, and the victim lost. The victim tries to make the non abuser into an abuser, and if that fails the victim leaves.

For the purpose of clarity, is spirit to you, our psychological state? By that I mean, from the above paragraph, combined with the one below it, you appear to be saying ?'The state of being a victim' is spirit?

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SOOO, spirit is not a state of imagination because it is 100% known by interacting with the world around us. It is also not determined by us, I think all religions teach that our natures are God given or are with us at birth (genetics, chemical balance and so on not changeable by us). The condition of our state of being (spirituality) is determined by a combination of our nature (soul) and the extent to which we perfect our relationships, because it is by perfecting our relationships that we learn to see deeply into life. It is by perfecting our relationships that we learn who we are, what our nature is (if you are Zen).

A couple of questions for you from this paragraph :
1.You said that ?'spirit' is not determined by us. The reason you have given appears to be - ?'genetics, chemical balance and so on not changeable by us'. Is this what you meant?

2. What do you mean by ?'our nature/soul' - specifically what do you mean by ?'our nature', which you say means ?'our soul', and ?'our soul' sounds to me rather like ?'our spirit', which you say means ?'our state of being', which sounds to me somewhat like ?'our nature' (presumably I've got something wrong, because if not, I'm confused as the terms seem interchangeable from what I can work out of what you are saying, but you are using them as separate ideas)

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Spirituality, our state of being, dances around the two poles of self awareness and relationships with other people. Self awareness and relationship are conpletely connected to each other. If you want to be good at one you have to be good at the other. This is why you find a spiritual person such as myself hanging out on the relationship forum. This is also why when ever a person is having a relationship problem the first thing we always do is to advise them to work on themselves.

I follow most of this, though for me the question still exists for what you think spirituality is - not saying you are wrong - just that I haven't fully understood what you think it is yet.

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Vikoor, to me, spirituality has nothing to do with religion. It is rather like an inner peace. It is very difficult to explain abstract nouns. The connotation is one thing; the denotation is another thing.

Here is the denotation:

spirituality

n., pl. -ties.
The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.
The clergy.
Something, such as property or revenue, that belongs to the church or to a cleric. Often used in the plural.

That atheist, Bill Gates, destroyed my last response. Razz

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Quote:

A couple of questions for you from this paragraph :
1.You said that ?'spirit' is not determined by us. The reason you have given appears to be - ?'genetics, chemical balance and so on not changeable by us'. Is this what you meant?

No spirit is fully a function of our nature (soul) and of our perfecting our relationships. Our nature can not be impacted by us, our relationships can be, so we have some self determination

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2. What do you mean by ?'our nature/soul' - specifically what do you mean by ?'our nature', which you say means ?'our soul', and ?'our soul' sounds to me rather like ?'our spirit', which you say means ?'our state of being', which sounds to me somewhat like ?'our nature' (presumably I've got something wrong, because if not, I'm confused as the terms seem interchangeable from what I can work out of what you are saying, but you are using them as separate ideas)

In zen we talk about our nature, in Christianity they talk about the individual soul. There are some differences, but basically the terms are interchangeable.

I did say what spirituality is, it is the condition of our state of being. In zen we say it is the energy of the universe resonating with-in the illusion we call the self, in Christianity they call it the power of God working though us.

Interesting point: a person can not be a man of God with out both obtaining profound self awareness as well as perfecting his relationships. We have all witnessed a lot of people who have little ability to form relationships and interact at a high level with other humans running a round signing their praises to Jesus. They can all be ignored, they can not possibly be particularly spiritual.

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Hi Hawkeye,

Thanks for the clarification.

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I did say what spirituality is, it is the condition of our state of being. In zen we say it is the energy of the universe resonating with-in the illusion we call the self, in Christianity they call it the power of God working though us.

This was what I was looking for when I said that you didn't say what spirituality was :wink:

Quote:

Interesting point: a person can not be a man of God with out both obtaining profound self awareness as well as perfecting his relationships. We have all witnessed a lot of people who have little ability to form relationships and interact at a high level with other humans running a round signing their praises to Jesus. They can all be ignored, they can not possibly be particularly spiritual.

I would agree to a point - perfecting our relationships requires at least two parties, and it's likely impossible to 'perfect' our ability to grow and strengthen our relationships (perfection implying there is nothing more to learn)

As for what spirit is - I have a differing view on it - believing that spirit is what combines with our bodies to give us our 'lifeforce', 'life', or some such. It appears to me that through it we are interconnected with all other beings...and as such, when we meet new people whom we find we like, we are not 'connecting' with them - we are 'strengthening the connection'. Spirit to me can be seen when 'you feel someone staring at the back of your head', or you walk around a blind corner and suddenly stop just before you see another person walking around the corner who would have collided with you, or what is experienced in mob mentality, or in team spirit etc etc etc

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vikorr wrote:

As for what spirit is - I have a differing view on it - believing that spirit is what combines with our bodies to give us our 'lifeforce', 'life', or some such. It appears to me that through it we are interconnected with all other beings...and as such, when we meet new people whom we find we like, we are not 'connecting' with them - we are 'strengthening the connection'. Spirit to me can be seen when 'you feel someone staring at the back of your head', or you walk around a blind corner and suddenly stop just before you see another person walking around the corner who would have collided with you, or what is experienced in mob mentality, or in team spirit etc etc etc

Any spiritual person would affirm the interconncectiveness of things, as well as the existence of what we would call the supernatural..things that can not be explained.

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Thanks - I haven't really looked into spirituality as such - I've read one book that I didn't know was written by a mystic prior to reading it (do you know how little there is written on the subject of 'awareness', when you type it into Amazon)...and what I wrote is a conclusion I came to prior to reading that book. Also, how I define spirit still seems to differ to what you said. I would not personally extend it to a state of mind, though perhaps (and that's only a perhaps, I haven't made up my mind yet) I would extend it to ones nature.

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For myself I don't tend to have much need for dividing religion and spirituality so I like others have come to think of it in terms of a state of mind, perspective or orientation with regards to I and the world. Integration or synergy are particularly expressive words to me in this sense. I tend to think the key is in emphasising pattern and relationship instead of static structures or isolated instances. In this sense the specific states of mind people find themselves in are less important but the dynamic nature of consciousness and life at large is what gives spirituality it's it's basis to me. I think people feel spiritual when they feel the moment they find themselves in is spontaneous and fresh in a way that envelopes the person and softens up those rigid lines between I and the world.

I read a definition of ambient music as music that envelopes the listener without drawing attention to itself, this rings true for me with regards to spiritual experience if you will. In the sense that there is more of a connotation of an irreducible flow as opposed to an acknowledged division much like some musical experience cannot be divided because the awareness of the listener has ascended to a different height or plane.

Contrast that with maybe a more typical outlook that sees the situation reduced to it's constituent parts in a more linear fashion in terms of I going from here to there for this reason. Feelings of isolation (not just from people but from the place you find yourself), compulsion and division seem to be the antitheis of spirituality in this sense anyway.

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Ashers wrote:

In this sense the specific states of mind people find themselves in are less important but the dynamic nature of consciousness and life at large is what gives spirituality it's it's basis to me. I think people feel spiritual when they feel the moment they find themselves in is spontaneous and fresh in a way that envelopes the person and softens up those rigid lines between I and the world.
.

I agree, but religions try to corral "dynamic nature of consciousness" into forms that are recognized as being consistent with the beliefs of the group. Religion is for consciousness much like the state is for behavior.... a regulator, teacher, enforcer. I don't see any way to claim that there is not much difference between religion and spirituality, you can have any personal belief structure you want but where the rubber meets the road there is always a huge difference between the two. There needs to be, because you can not undertake large endeavours by a collective with out a shared spirituality, which is what Religion encourages.

Zen is a singular exception to the rule, which is why many have claimed that Zen is not a religion, that it is a philosophy. DT Suzuki said that he did not care if the West called Zen a religion or a philosophy, it is the truth either way. Many have tried to eliminate Zen from the discussion by kicking it off the stage. However, because Zen is not a religion in the classic sense it can never be a spirituality of the masses. Zen has always been for the elites, has never been able to be more than that. Zen is the exception that proves the rule that imposing a uniform spirituality upon the individuals of the group is important towards the success of the group.

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hawkeye10 wrote:

Ashers wrote:
In this sense the specific states of mind people find themselves in are less important but the dynamic nature of consciousness and life at large is what gives spirituality it's it's basis to me. I think people feel spiritual when they feel the moment they find themselves in is spontaneous and fresh in a way that envelopes the person and softens up those rigid lines between I and the world.
.

I agree, but religions try to corral "dynamic nature of consciousness" into forms that are recognized as being consistent with the beliefs of the group.

I.e. The dynamic flux into the static object. Well anyway I agree pretty much entirely with your assessment of religion in it's most widely used sense and have found that a religion which posits a mantra or an idea to be recited as the difference between heaven and hell as preposterous and deeply anti spiritual, to use the word as you are seeing it. This is why I originally made the statement of similarity between the two with the extra note of "for myself". I see religions as possessing the capacity for being sources of wisdom. Wisdom in this sense could be thought of as a pointer to the infinite, never to be seen as an end in itself else the dynamic becomes the static. You see it in religions, the way they grow and adapt and take on social forms but I see the source, the essence of religion, the starting block as being spiritual, spirituality is a return to the beginning, just as a number of the great religious teachers tell us to be our own lights. I admit this is blurring the lines of distinction when the lines serve a purpose and when the context suits that purpose I draw the line again but in this topic, for me personally, I need no distinction. I understand completely what you're saying though and in a wider sense share you're concerns or views on the differences. See I think, J. Krishnamurti, for an utterly compelling critique of religious order and structure with regards to spirituality. Hope this makes some sense.

hawkeye10 wrote:

Zen is a singular exception to the rule, which is why many have claimed that Zen is not a religion, that it is a philosophy. DT Suzuki said that he did not care if the West called Zen a religion or a philosophy, it is the truth either way. Many have tried to eliminate Zen from the discussion by kicking it off the stage. However, because Zen is not a religion in the classic sense it can never be a spirituality of the masses. Zen has always been for the elites, has never been able to be more than that. Zen is the exception that proves the rule that imposing a uniform spirituality upon the individuals of the group is important towards the success of the group.

I am most familiar with Zen more than anything I guess although still not very familiar all the same ! I would be tempted to make a general statement about much of eastern philosophy & religion in general that is, it's brilliance lies in it's central question. Will you read the writings, consider the ideas and then move beyond them? They ask us to go beyond them, they're form and nature towards that which they're pointing to, not to treat them as ends in themselves. That's how I conceive of it and the part I find most brilliant. The differences of opinion religions have are never the important part, it's the weight the religions and the religious place on disagreements. I can't help thinking the character of Lao Tzu and his creators, with their breathtakingly poignant paradoxes, playfully jotted down in that book they call the Tao te Ching were laughing...at the ultimate joke, Zen takes inspiration from this general outlook I think.

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i like this definition: predominantly spiritual character as shown in thought, life, etc.; spiritual tendency or tone.

you need to add to that what this "spiritual" character is, however. I would say that it is the same attitude that a religious person would have about being religious, that is, by "spritual character" they mean someone who is likely to be religious. Spirit is someone's soul, so spirituality would be focused on the self, but focused on the self in a manner in which they can understand it more deeply than just standard cognitive thinking about it, so religion might help you understand yourself in that "higher" manner. that is, it is almost like faith to believe in yourself like that, so it is like religion. The relationship between faith/religion and spirituality then is that both are "higher" methods of understanding the world. spirituality is just focused on the self, while religion is focused on god. So there is an inner peace that spirituality brings because spirituality is about yourself. You can also say it is about your soul, not just your state of being, because soul is who you really are, the core of yourself, and if you are more connected to the core of yourself you are going to be more at peace, and therefore have more of that spiritual connection, which is one that is a "higher" connection to yourself, like how religion is a "high" connection to god. this "high" connection is higher because it is connected to who you really are, which is the spirit part of spirituality which implies a soul, because when you imagine someone as being a spirit or a ghost you take away their physical form and focus more on who they are mentally, or the core of their being or soul.

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I think that it can be said that religion is in part spirituality that has been ratified by our ancestors as being beneficial to man. I don't think that it can lay claim to truth, as Zen teaches that truth is forever changing through time and that it changes with perspective. Religion is truth as it generally was at the time the religion was established, unless there is a vehicle within the religion to keep truth fresh. What killed off Christianity was an unwillingness on the part of the believers to accept truth as their personal experience ratified above the words of a very old book that was on its third language.

God is truth, religion points to truth, some better than others. Spirituality comes from having profound truth bouncing around inside our being.

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I tend to think of spirit/spirituality etymologically. The word, spirit, is seen in terms of life: expire, inspire, and breath (i.e, respiration). It has, in addition to the notion of life itself, a reference to the QUALITY of life. I am thinking of Testy's reference to "state of being", if I have that right. Geist also refers to the spirit, mood, or tone of a living moment (zeitgeist: spirit of an age). This has nothing to do with the unrealistic supernaturalism or magical thinking of any kind. Divinity is also consistent with a more realistic view of things. Like sacred (vs. profane) it is an expressive metaphor for the value one gives to something.

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