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Fri 7 Mar, 2008 05:50 pm
I really, really seriously want to be a professional teacher and avoid all kinds of non professional shortcomings and lack of maturity and wisdom and do only the best.
And so after some time of being quiet after getting some warnings from the people here, I seriously started to think that I should find out if there are still any bad things I do at work, and althouth nobody is perfect, at least we should try to be within the limits of what our job's responsibility requires.
I know that in the US a teacher must NOT flirt with a student, otherwise they are fired immediately. In our country, it is not so, but at the same time, it is not considered professional. Anyway, my problem is that I no matter how hard I try, cannot find the thin line between a chat and flirt. Between a smile and flirt. Between a look and flirt. I have been very careful at work recently and observing my behavior toward my teenage students and I simply am not able to decide if what is going on is any near flirting or not. I have looked up the word in dictionaries, but the definitions make no sense. Making sexual or amorous offers without serious intentions. WHAT??? What the heck does that mean? Like excuse me, lady, would you like to go for coffee without thinking seriously about it? Well, if that is flirting, then I am really fine. I don't make any remarks that might mean that I want to meet them privately, let alone do something sexual or romantic at such a meeting. But I joke a lot, hell lot. We laugh all the time in some classes. In others it is serious and cold like ice. But how do I find out if the way they laugh or I laugh has anything to do with flirting? I mean they are young and naturally flirtatious. Whatever that means. I mean they seem to act like girls, girlish gigglish googoogigish. I guess that is natural for them at that age. I once took of my pullover damn just because it was so hot there and there was my funny T shirt under it. The girls and the boys, they all laughed because there was some funny picture on my T shirt. So what. I laughed too. Then I said, ok, enough laughing, back to work. I once taught these 10 year old girls and one of them tended to come real close to me to tell me something sooo serious that I had to step back to get some room, some privacy. I just said, please... why don't you keep your distance. Well, is that not professional? I did smile or something, I mean I am funny quite a lot, I make the students laugh and I don't know why exactly but it seems humane and fine and does not obstruct the lessons.
If you really can explain where inadequate, non professional flirt begins, please let me know and I will make sure or check back if that was my case or not. ALthough it is not such a huge problem in my country, I still believe there is some serious reason why it is banned in US schools.
Recently I have met an AMerican High shool teacher and a bunch of his
17 year old students and I could see you guys have a really different relationship with students. The group seemed more like a family than school to me. There is this interesting bond that does not exist or I don't feel in my school with students, but it is quite exotic for me. For you, American high school teachers, students are sons and daughters and you look after them like they are fragile flowers. We on the other hand treat our students either like stupid irresponsible brats that need spanking or
try to make friends with them or mix these styles. We definitely dont' say the word LOVE so often as you do. So you seem more like a family, we seem more like a randomly mixed up group of adults and teenagers getting on each others' nerves most of the time.
stach- I don't know where you are from, but in the US, teachers are supposed to be mentors to their students, not friends. In an ideal situation there needs to be a barrier between students and teachers. The teachers need to be concerned around imparting knowledge, and helping a student when he appears to be having some difficulties.
A teacher needs to know the difference between caring and flirting. If he doesn't, he has no business being in a school with adolescents.
I suggest you read "Winesberg Ohio" by Sherwood Anderson
Phoenix32890 wrote:stach- I don't know where you are from, but in the US, teachers are supposed to be mentors to their students, not friends. In an ideal situation there needs to be a barrier between students and teachers. The teachers need to be concerned around imparting knowledge, and helping a student when he appears to be having some difficulties.
A teacher needs to know the difference between caring and flirting. If he doesn't, he has no business being in a school with adolescents.
Friends - I did not write I was friends with them. We don't go out with my students and when I see them in the streets, they hardly greet me. So I don't know how you think I am friends with them. I don't call them in the evening to chat, I don't know about their birthdays and they call me by my last name. When I said some teachers act like friends, I exaggerated a bit,
I meant like in my case, they are not strictly cut off from them by an invisible wall like it used to be in the past in our country. I meant the relationship is not strictly formal any more like it used to be.
Anyway, I would still like to know how you could find the definition of flirting and how it shows at school. What must happen that leads to firing a teacher in the US based on his flirting? That is something I don't understand.
dyslexia wrote:I suggest you read "Winesberg Ohio" by Sherwood Anderson
hmmm, so now i am really puzzled - i looked up the contents of the book as I had no idea about what the book is
this is what it says:
The work explores the theme of loneliness and frustration in small-town America. Anderson's writing often seems disjointed and tentative, a style that lends itself to the half-conscious thoughts and raw emotions of Winesburg's residents and their inability to express their deepest hopes and fears. The townspeople are grotesques, stunted morally, emotionally, mentally, or spiritually, and they are inarticulate. They seem to gravitate toward George, telling him their strange, often sad, stories in the hope that, in writing the stories of their lives, he will be able to impart dignity and meaning to their personal struggles and experiences. The chapter "Paper Pills" recounts how the misshapen apples - the grotesques of the orchard - are ignored, left on the tree, where they slowly ripen until they fall. Those that bother to taste these discarded grotesques discover they are the sweetest of apples.
You know what once this really interesting thing happened to me at school.
A female student, about 17 years old, came up to me in front of my office and asked something about grammar tests and I answered. My colleague, who is a 30 something woman teacher, spotted the scene and told me afterwards: I noticed the girl was talking about tests but in her eyes and her movement of the body it was as if a woman was talking to a man!
I was amazed how great psychological wit or observation it was. I would never see that. As a woman, she knows the tiny subtle differences between looks and movements as women are usually careful to observe the competition when they go out with husbands. So I asked her: That is great what you can see. Do you think it is my fault? But she didn't think so. She didn't say it as accusation of me, rather the student. I wonder if that is possible to prevent. And I wonder if it is any important to prevent these subtle for me invisible mental games that have nothing to do with teaching and learning English.
I once saw a group of female teenagers to approach a teacher and beg him to postpone a test. They were all shaking their backsides and rolling eyes and playing with hair and smiling sweetly. He was standing there quite neutral, hardly smiling. I wonder if he was fired in the US. Obviously, their part was somehow sexual. But was his part? And once I smile back, I am fired?
Adolescent girls will sometimes "try out" their feminine wiles with a teacher, in order to get what they want. The teacher needs to behave in a way that signals to the student that he is ignoring the seductive glances, and keep the student on track in terms of an approproate relationship.
I don't know what culture that you are from, but there is something that you have mentioned more than once that is bothering me. Why do you think that you could be fired? Young girls often flirt with thir teachers, but that is not his fault, and if there is no response on is part, there should not be a problem.
Phoenix, you should at least admit that the definition of "flirt" as it is in dictionaries does not explain the problem you mean at school. I have just googled "flirt teacher" and see what I found. In the story the word "flirt" is used quite differently from its dictionary definition. In the story to flirt means to "stare like an idiot", "to fall in love", "to show clearly via eyes, words, movement, that you are mad about the person". Man, I do NOT do such silly things. I used to, when I was 23. Period.
Here is the story and it describes something clear and I understand it is quite easy to detect that for other teachers and students and it is a clear example of a teacher who is NOT professional. But it is zillion years far from what I do with female students. I don't focus on one poor girl and play stupid games with her for ages and in and out of school.
Read this:
veryone here seems to be supporting the idea that accepting romantic interests from you TEACHER is acceptable. it's not. and not just because it's illegal. you don't know how this will affect your mind psychologically, whose life you might ruin because you believe that you "love" him. You have to understand that you and the teacher are on two totally different planets when it comes to what you see yourself getting out of the relationship. You may see it as a timeless, flirty fling and he has only one thing in mind. I had a highschool teacher hit on me for three years. I didn't want him to, but he never left me alone nor stopped starring at me. Everyone in the class saw what was happening, but no one said anything about it. no one helped me. I was counting the days until i got out of highschool. However I must say, that in the beginning I was nieve and thought that it was cute and kind of flattering that he liked me, but it got worse and I realized I had no way out. And then a FEMALE university professor hit on me for a whole year (THAT was a traumatizing experience because I am female and I am in NO WAY gay). You need to make sure this teacher knows that you're not there to flirt with him and scandalize your life. You're there to learn, have a normal school experience, and make something of yourself in this world (something that HE has already done of himself and need to let you do as well! - without him trying to screw you up (pun intended) for his own lustful pleasure.
Man, now I am really relieved that it is not about me and I would not be fired in the US. Thank God.
Phoenix32890 wrote:Adolescent girls will sometimes "try out" their feminine wiles with a teacher, in order to get what they want. The teacher needs to behave in a way that signals to the student that he is ignoring the seductive glances, and keep the student on track in terms of an approproate relationship.
I don't know what culture that you are from, but there is something that you have mentioned more than once that is bothering me. Why do you think that you could be fired? Young girls often flirt with thir teachers, but that is not his fault, and if there is no response on is part, there should not be a problem.
I am never alone in my classroom with a student with the door closed. I am very cognizant of keeping that door open any time I am alone with a student, so that if a student wanted to make untrue allegations about me, there wouldn't be very much room to. Everyone in my building knows that my door is almost always open, so everyone knows there is nothing going on that I need to hide and that they can walk by and see and hear whatever is going on in that room.
I think that's the kind of mindset you need to keep Stach. You never know when you will get someone who develops a fixation or who is mentally ill who will misconstrue your behavior or a remark and choose to believe it is something other than it is. So you need to work defensively.
I do work with young adults and sometimes I'm amazed that a crush will develop and other students will tell me, or the person himself will say something inappropriate and I always cut it right off - in front of the whole class- so they will know that I'm not interested in that at all. I say something like, "I'm your teacher and old enough to be your mother. It's extremely inappropriate for you to talk about or look at me in that way. Bottom line."
And then I try to redirect their energy and misplaced emotion toward something more appropriate and productive like their studies.
My teaching situation is different than most. A lot of these kids don't have families- so my role is different. One boy calls me "Mom". I do mentor my students, and take them out for lunch and to get haircuts and things like that. But that's a known and accepted part of my job. Even still, I NEVER go alone with one student. I always take at least two.
I have had students, male and female tell me that they love me. I have told students male and female that I love them too. But I make sure they all know that I love them all as people whom I care about and whose futures I am trying to help them secure. If I didn't care about or love them - I wouldn't be there.
But I do think it's much easier for a woman than for a man to walk that fine line. If I were you - I'd have a discussion with the whole class about appropriate and inappropriate emotions and how and when it's okay to show them. Maybe you could even talk with the class about what constitutes flirting and how uncomfortable it is to be on the receiving end when someone isn't interested.
(i've nothing to say, but thought this should be here)
Young teacher, the subject
Of schoolgirl fantasy
She wants him so badly
Knows what she wants to be
Inside her theres longing
This girls an open page
Book marking - shes so close now
This girl is half his age
Dont stand, dont stand so
Dont stand so close to me
Her friends are so jealous
You know how bad girls get
Sometimes its not so easy
To be the teachers pet
Temptation, frustration
So bad it makes him cry
Wet bus stop, shes waiting
His car is warm and dry
Dont stand, dont stand so
Dont stand so close to me
Loose talk in the classroom
To hurt they try and try
Strong words in the staffroom
The accusations fly
Its no use, he sees her
He starts to shake and cough
Just like the old man in
That book by nabakov
Dont stand, dont stand so
Dont stand so close to me
Stach,
In my experience as a teacher, teenaged girls are very likely to flirt with you. Some of them will flirt like mad. It's normal--for them. All you need do about this is be sure that you do not respond in kind.
The laughter you mention is great; you have a happy classroom. Nothing kills off the joy of learning as quickly as dead-seriousness. You do have a serious purpose--the best education you can provide your students--but this does not mean the tone in your classroom needs to be humorless. Some of my very best teachers were very amusing, and I remember in detail what they taught me, as well as their facility with humor. One caveat about a teacher's humor in the classroom: never tease. Teasing can be taken as an embarrassing insult--or it could be taken as flirting.
Aidan has good advice about keeping the door open when you are working/talking alone with a student. You never know what a student's private agenda might be; therefore, avoid openings for inappropriate behavior.
Don't let your 30-something colleague make you unduly nervous by enumerating the small semi-sexual gestures the girl made while talking with you. Of course, these gestures are there; it's normal; you didn't elicit them. You didn't respond to them.
Never touch a student, even if she (or sometimes he) bursts into tears. Crying happens; these kids have complex lives on top of all the hormones. If a girl cries, simply kneel down by her seat, so that you are close enough to speak quietly, and say, "I'm really sorry you're not feeling well. Would you like to go to a place where you can have some privacy?" You will have set up this safe go-to place with the administration before anyone cries.
Even if a student touches you, you are quite probably not doing anything wrong. American children, especially the younger ones, tend to be all over you like friendly puppies. Just ask them, politely, to stop. Be firm on this one!
Some American teachers are something akin to friends with their needier (emotionally and/or financially) students. This is okay, but, do not see these kids alone. You are giving them special support; they might try to repay your kindness in a way that is inappropriate.
Relax, keep laughing, and maintain a friendly separateness between you and your students. Sounds as if you have a really positive classroom.
Thank you guys for tips. I keep some rules that I clearly understand - like never touch, never comment on their bodies, don't stare, try to spread the attention all over the class all the time, the teasing that you advise to avoid, that is something that I hadn't clearly understood before, you are right it could be disinterpreted by the student or taken as insult. THe doors open, this probably is really important in the US as there are lots of cases where it led to big trouble, it is more a concern in schools where I luckily don't teach, as my students are not that simply evil, but i hardly ever find myself in my office with a single student, actually i am not sure if it ever happened, there are always some teachers around or students.
I found a good website which listed all no nos for teachers to avoid abusing students but I forgot where it was. It was a list of these critical things. Don't comment on body, don't make sexual jokes etc... simply the list of things that may lead to mental problems or hassle of the student involved. I think I understand the list quite well. The whole thread was started as I realized I just didn't understand the definition of "flirt". But I undestand the rules now and even the subtleties like teasing, so thank you very much, I will feel more comfortable now at work.
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