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Are we the only species that know of death?

 
 
Gilbey
 
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 02:04 pm
We know that all of us will die at some point, but do other animals know of death, in the same way that we do?

Some animals seem to get "upset" as it were, when they see a family member dead on the ground, but do they know what has actually happened?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,478 • Replies: 24
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 03:49 pm
Re: Are we the only species that know of death?
Gilbey wrote:
We know that all of us will die at some point, but do other animals know of death, in the same way that we do?

Some animals seem to get "upset" as it were, when they see a family member dead on the ground, but do they know what has actually happened?


Elephants do seem to know what happened when one of them dies.
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 07:14 pm
wow your sig is , its awesome. thats like the best quote ive ever heard.
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 08:04 pm
We had 2 cats. One of them died. The other went to the dead one and started licking his face. After the burial the surviving cat was most noticeably distraught for some time
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 10:25 pm
Re: Are we the only species that know of death?
Gilbey wrote:
We know that all of us will die at some point, but do other animals know of death, in the same way that we do?

Some animals seem to get "upset" as it were, when they see a family member dead on the ground, but do they know what has actually happened?

I think many animals sense the loss of an individual, and know that it will not return. But undoubtedly, we are the only animals that anticipate death the way we do (sorry to point out the obvious). We are also the only animals to anticipate death at all. Other animals anticipate fear, but not death.
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 10:29 pm
I've seen dogs pine, but I'm never sure if it's because a buddy has died or they are lonely. Often buying a new dog perks up the old one.

I've even seen Indian Mynah birds hang around a dead friend on a road, so oblivious to what's going on around them that they meet the same fate (becoming roadkill).

But what does it mean to know death? They can't write poems about it and they probably don't have dreams about it or worry about their or their loved one's mortality. Does knowing something's dead mean you know death?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 11:21 pm
I like Hingehead's post. We might take into account that the notion of "death" varies among cultures and among individuals within our own. I'm pretty sure very few A2Kers share my notion of it.
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raprap
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 02:14 am
Descartes thought so; he considered all other species besides human's autonomies. But he never considered self-awareness.

Human intelligence is variable. At what age does a human become self aware, and once their self-aware when does a human realize that they are mortal. Is the latter a learned event or is it a taught event (learned from others).

As for other species, there are several besides humans that have demonstrated self awareness, that is they are able to recognize their picture or a reflection as themselves (as someone pointed out elephants are one of those species), Moreover, some of these self-aware cognizant species are able to recognize others in reflections or pictures (awareness of others), and some species (as others have pointed out) are able to recognize (and possibly morn) the loss (death) of others.

I guess these steps have to be connected to humans, and human maturity. When does a human become self aware? When does a human become aware of others? When does a human develop a sense of loss?

Now I tend to think of myself as not being species arrogant. I don't consider humans to be the be all, end all of species. Right now, humans are the top of the food chain, a position which has proven to be (at best) a tenuous position. Could this be a sense of self mortality or a sense of species mortality? Is this a sense that only comes with of maturity, or is it something that I've been taught. Personally I think it is the former and it is one that isn't recognized by all humans--even those that are self aware, recognize others as individuals, and are aware of their own mortality.

Now to regress to the original subject--do other species know of their own mortality? Developmental Psychologists (Piaget) developed terms that they call the four stages of cognitive thought---semimotor, pre-operational, concrete operational, and formal operational and have tied these stages to normal maturity. semi-motor is up to age 6, preoperational to early adolescence, concrete operational to late adolescence, and formal operational to adulthood (if ever)---when in human development does a sense of mortality develop? I've been in children's hospitals where mortally sick children know that they are going to die, I've also felt a similar emotion from contact with animals (dogs mostly) that were mortally injured---but is this a true cognitive self-aware knowledge of mortality---or just a semimotor reflex? I don't know---but I've read of some non human species performing some pretty logical problem, Problems that exceed the semimotor cognition of children, so IMHO some species achieve a level of pre-operational cognition where in humans a sense of self mortality sometimes develops (although mortality in preteens does always seem to be someone else's mortality), and if equivalence is applied it would be logical to assume that some species other than humans have a sense of self mortality.

All well, this subject borders dengerously close to psychology and most psychology is bulls**t.

Rap
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 07:20 am
raprap wrote:
I've been in children's hospitals where mortally sick children know that they are going to die, I've also felt a similar emotion from contact with animals (dogs mostly) that were mortally injured---but is this a true cognitive self-aware knowledge of mortality---or just a semimotor reflex?

I think to answer the original question, we need to separate an animals feelings of injury or poor health from any implied anticipation of death.

I keep using the word anticipation because actions taken in preparation for death are probably the only way we would be able to say that an animal knew it was going to die. And again, we need to separate actions taken because it is injured or sick from actions taken because it knows it's going to die. Humans are probably the only animal to anticipate and plan for death while in a perfectly healthy and happy condition.
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Black tulip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 11:24 am
My husband died a month ago and my dog was by his side. My husband's death was very sudden. My dog tried running away twice within the week of my husband's death as if looking for him. He misses male company and was, is still upset by it. He has had an upset stomach and continually follows me around.

Last week the dog stood and stared a particular spot for 5 minutes then followed something into the hallway. I think something of my husband had come back and the dog sensed it.

I have not witnessed anything other than the above although certain things around the house have gone wrong simultaneously.

In the past when an animal has died a home we always let the other animals smell them, to let them know what has happened.
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raprap
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 12:23 pm
Black tulip wrote:
My husband died a month ago and my dog was by his side. My husband's death was very sudden. My dog tried running away twice within the week of my husband's death as if looking for him. He misses male company and was, is still upset by it. He has had an upset stomach and continually follows me around.

Last week the dog stood and stared a particular spot for 5 minutes then followed something into the hallway. I think something of my husband had come back and the dog sensed it.

I have not witnessed anything other than the above although certain things around the house have gone wrong simultaneously.

In the past when an animal has died a home we always let the other animals smell them, to let them know what has happened.


I think dogs have a sense of mortality, at least of others. My mother had a dog, Rocket J squirrel, that survived the death, of two of his human compatriots, one was sudden and unexpected and Rocky searced long and hard for this now missing human companion, The other was at the end os a short but fatal and expected illness at the end of a long life. Rocky's behavior was markedly different as this humans absence was expected. Rocky's behavior during these two deaths has become part of my immediate families lore as Rocky is probably the favorites of my mothers many dogs.

Rap
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raprap
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 12:26 pm
Black Tulip I am sorry to hear of your loss. I lost my best friend and soulmate almost eight years ago and I still have dreams of her. My heart is with you.

Rap
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 03:57 pm
Raprap suggests that an animal's ability to recognize himself in a picture or mirror is evidence of self-awareness. Let me ask him about the penguin who entered a bar and asked the bartender if he had seen his (the penguin's) father. The bartender asked what the father looks like? The penguin answered, "Like me."
Does this mean that the Penguin can not distinguish between himself and his father?
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Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 05:44 pm
Are we the only species that bury our dead?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 05:54 pm
Sglass wrote:
Are we the only species that bury our dead?

Neanderthals buried their dead. They also buried them with objects (flowers and jewelry).
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 07:16 pm
Elephants mourn their dead
Rossella Lorenzi
Discovery News

Friday, 4 November 2005

Elephants pay homage to the bones of their dead, gently touching the skulls and tusks with their trunks and feet, according to the first systematic study of elephant empathy for the dead.

Full Story - interesting
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Black tulip
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Mar, 2008 07:04 am
That is interesting, I have not asked myself whether animals bury their dead.

But I know they pay homage to their dead and can pine for their mates or a loved one. Their senses are very much more heightened than ours and sense/perceive things that we do not. May be that is because their needs are much more basic than ours. We as humans think much deeper and look for reasons for everything when maybe there are no reasons, may be we should accept things for what they are than looking too deeply. I don't know whether that is wrong or right, as my feeling are in heightened motion and all over the place at the moment.

Black Tulip
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OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2008 12:09 am
Re: Are we the only species that know of death?
Gilbey wrote:
We know that all of us will die at some point,
but do other animals know of death, in the same way that we do?

Some animals seem to get "upset" as it were, when they see a family member
dead on the ground, but do they know what has actually happened?

A competent answer to your question
requires information gleaned from
successfully interviewing other species of animals.

We stand in a paucity of data;
insufficient to render u an answer.


P.S.:
I suspect that death is a fraud.
www.IANDS.org
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2008 01:04 am
But can anyone know death? I think not. How can you have knowledge of that which is the opposite of experience?

Given you cannot know death, then you cannot anticipate death.

Thus at best one can only expect death (in terms of the cessation of experience).
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Black tulip
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2008 02:17 am
How true you are.
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