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Morality of Water Torture

 
 
coberst
 
Reply Fri 15 Feb, 2008 06:22 am
Morality of Water Torture

The present question regarding the nature and morality of torture offers us an excellent opportunity to advance the level of sophistication of our understanding of morality. We learn best when we are questioning a matter that is meaningful to us.

I was eleven years old when Germany and Japan surrendered and WWII was finally over. One searing memory of this war were the stories I read and the movies I watched during and after the war regarding the torture and general brutality that the German Gestapo inflicted upon the people they conquered. I do not know why this left such a strong impression on me but it certainly did.

Coincidentally I have been studying "Moral Imagination" by Mark Johnson. This is the same Johnson who coauthored the book "Philosophy in the Flesh" with George Lakoff. I have decided to apply the theories Johnson presents in his book as a means to illuminate this matter regarding the morality of water torture used by my country in our struggle with Islamic extremists.

Moral understanding is like any other kind of experience; when we examine a domain of experience that relates to human relationships we must focus our attention on human understanding it self. If we do so we discover that human understanding is fundamentally imaginative in character.

"Many of our most basic concepts have considerable internal structure that cannot be accounted for by the classical theory of concepts as defined by necessary and sufficient featuresÂ…The primary forms of moral imagination are concepts with prototype structure, semantic frames, conceptual metaphors, and narratives."

To become morally insightful we must become knowledgeable of these imaginative structures. First, we must give up our illusions about absolute moral codes and also our radical moral subjectivism. Second we must refine our "perception of character traits and situations and of developing empathetic imagination to take up the part of others."

Empathy is a character trait that can be cultivated by habit and will. Sympathy is somewhat of an automatic response.

When we see a mother weeping over the death of her child caused by a suicide bomber we feel immediate sympathy. Often we will come to tears. But we do not feel anything like that for the mother who may be weeping over the death of her child who was the bomber.

To understand the bomber we must use empathy. We attempt through imagination and reason to create a situation that will allow us to understand why this was done. This is a rational means to understand someone who acts different than we would.

"Empathy is the idea that the vital properties which we experience in or attribute to any person or object outside ourselves are the projections of our own feelings and thoughts."

The subject viewing an object of art experiences emotional attitudes leading to feelings that are attributes of qualities in the art object thus aesthetic pleasure may be considered as "objectified self-enjoyment in which the subject and object are fused."



"What is crucial is that our moral reasoning can be constrained by the metaphoric and other imaginative structures shared within our culture and moral tradition, yet it can also be creative in transforming our moral understanding, our identity, and the course of our lives. Without this kind of imaginative reasoning we would lead dreadfully impoverished lives. We would be reduced to repeating habitual actions, driven by forces and contingencies beyond our control."

Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?
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hanno
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Feb, 2008 08:34 pm
Fundamentally imaginative in character.

Alright, I say who needs it? This is America - we obliterate our enemies. Subvert, convict folks of economic espionage and all that crap, why must we lower ourselves? Someone gets on our bad side, let's put 75 acres of aircraft carrier on them.

The problem is we ain't pushing our OSS hard enough or giving them the right support, if they can't get the dirt without becoming an issue. As it is, screw water boarding, if they're gonna come, let 'em, this is the USA, we'll thermobaric the whole globe if we've got to.
0 Replies
 
coberst
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 07:56 am
It appears to me that few people have ever been taught anything about empathy. Empathy is an effort of the imagination to walk in the shoes of another. I suspect that anyone who understand the meaning of empathy and has been able to walk in the shoes of another could not torture that individual.

Take anyone who you know well and truly despise and imagine torturing that individual. I do not think any normal person could do such a thing.

I think that one of the reasons that we humans are on the path to self destruction is partially due to the fact that our culture has never embraced the understanding of empathy.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 09:04 am
HANNO, i WAS 11 WHEN THE cUBAN mISSILE cRISIS WAS THE NEWS. i REMEMBER jOHN kENNEDY SAYING THAT WE
"Always exercise the fine art of diplomacy first, in fact we will employ 80000 tons of diplomacy in this matter"


Coberst, I dont think that the issue of "morality" is always in play. We must consider expediency or national self interest in the equation. An example, If a nuclear device were planted in one of our cities and we had the perps in hand, I would sanction the use of any means , including the slow painful death of one of the perps in the audience of the others to try to "convince" them of the error of their ways and get them to sing.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 02:36 pm
Quote:
Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?


If the circumstances are right. Yes.

Empathy with another person doesn't deny anyone the right to fight for their own survival.
0 Replies
 
coberst
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 02:53 pm
farmerman wrote:
HANNO, i WAS 11 WHEN THE cUBAN mISSILE cRISIS WAS THE NEWS. i REMEMBER jOHN kENNEDY SAYING THAT WE
"Always exercise the fine art of diplomacy first, in fact we will employ 80000 tons of diplomacy in this matter"


Coberst, I dont think that the issue of "morality" is always in play. We must consider expediency or national self interest in the equation. An example, If a nuclear device were planted in one of our cities and we had the perps in hand, I would sanction the use of any means , including the slow painful death of one of the perps in the audience of the others to try to "convince" them of the error of their ways and get them to sing.


The major problem with utilitarianism is that one must have certain knowledge and certain knowledge is not possible.
0 Replies
 
coberst
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 02:54 pm
vikorr wrote:
Quote:
Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?


If the circumstances are right. Yes.

Empathy with another person doesn't deny anyone the right to fight for their own survival.


I agree.
0 Replies
 
coberst
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 02:56 pm
vikorr wrote:
Quote:
Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?




Empathy with another person doesn't deny anyone the right to fight for their own survival.


I agee.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 03:20 pm
coberst
Quote:
The major problem with utilitarianism is that one must have certain knowledge and certain knowledge is not possible.


In the context of my point, your response makes no sense.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 06:31 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
I would sanction the use of any means , including the slow painful death of one of the perps in the audience of the others to try to "convince" them of the error of their ways and get them to sing.


And what if she doesn't know anything and it's her baby you're having a bit of fun with?
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 08:24 pm
A baby can be a perp?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 05:52 am
spendi's atroll who invades posts with his unique worldview. Hes quite mad.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 06:44 am
vikkor wrote-

Quote:
A baby can be a perp?


Are you not very bright?

The mother can be and the man did say "any means".

And you have failed to deal with whether the lady "perp" knows anything rather than fm just assuming she does. fm has found her guilty without trial and tortured her to death, her baby first, (any means). And he hasn't evacuated the city.

And his answer is easy enough to do-

Quote:
spendi's atroll who invades posts with his unique worldview. Hes quite mad.


As if my being a troll, if I am, and being "quite mad" is a sufficient justification for his proposed actions which are illegal.

It is a marvellous system which allows such infantile responses to stand as answers to a point made in an important and genuine debate and which was on topic.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 01:50 pm
Spendius, before criticising what other people wrote, you need to make sure you've read what they wrote properly, otherwise you end up looking silly.

Farmerman wrote:
An example, If a nuclear device were planted in one of our cities and we had the perps in hand, I would sanction the use of any means , including the slow painful death of one of the perps in the audience of the others to try to "convince" them of the error of their ways and get them to sing.


Spendius wrote:
And what if she doesn't know anything and it's her baby you're having a bit of fun with?


Farmerman gave a specific example - the slow and painful death of one of the perps, to get another perp to talk.

You are obviously replying to the specific example, and just as obviously didn't read it carefully.

Your rebuttal strikes out on two counts - a baby can't be a perp, and a perp can't 'not know anything'.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 02:07 pm
Suit yourself.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 02:44 pm
Spendius, You always have the option of explaining how what I said is wrong. After attempting to insult anothers intelligence, you should be prepared to back up your statement with something intelligent. Or gracefully apologise.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 05:41 pm
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tt/2008/tt080215.gif
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 06:27 pm
It's never okay. End of story.

It constitutes a mis-direction of human intelligence which Jesus would have said is evil.

That's why Orwell is famous.
0 Replies
 
SerialCoder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 07:31 pm
To address coerst's origial post:

I would contend that in a country like the US, morality is dynamic. Or perhaps "flexible" is a better way to say it. This may be a bit of a stretchy argument but I would base that on our morals coming from our pseudo Christian roots. From my vantage point, our country is a massive contradiction. id est, we claim to be of high moral stock and then we perpetrate all kinds of horrific acts against ourselves and others. So I guess I would have to claim that water boarding is moral if it is the flavor of the moment and it is immoral if enough of us find it offensive and show our dissent.

The empathy comments I could not agree with more. I think that a lack of empathy (and even an understanding of what it is) in our culture is a root of much of this crap.

I am new here so I hope this isn't considered "flaming" but the notion of "whatever it takes" being OK is just barbaric and stupid.

my 2 cents...
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 11:43 pm
spendius wrote:
It's never okay. End of story.


That's one perspective, and a rather valid one at that.

Quote:
It constitutes a mis-direction of human intelligence

Would you care to expand on the meaning of this phrase?

Quote:
which Jesus would have said is evil.
Perhaps...though you aren't Jesus to be able to say so, and this is the same Jesus who is part of the God Head that told the Israelites to kill all the babies in Caanan.
0 Replies
 
 

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