23
   

Is Reality a Social Construction ?

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2009 06:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Okay. What do you understand by the term "self integrity" ?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2009 06:41 pm
@fresco,
Ask your question in an understandable form, Fresco.

You have pulled this bullshit from way back in the Abuzz days...this nonsense of phrasing things in ways that become non-understandable.

Ask your question so that I can understand what your are asking...and I will attempt to give it an honest, respectful reply.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2009 06:54 pm
@fresco,
Isn't self- integrity a paraphrasing of the term internal consistency. And does the emperor have clothes.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2009 06:55 pm
What are worried about Frank ? That last question couldn't have been clearer !

Maybe you should think about what you mean by "honesty" as well ! Wink

(Off to bed).
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2009 07:25 pm
@fresco,
Fresco...I am not worried.

And I am honest.

If you have a question...ask the goddam question and I will try my best to give you a response.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 02:18 am
@Frank Apisa,
I repeat...

What do you understand by the term "self integrity" ?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 07:10 am
Is there a page missing from this thread?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 07:11 am
I know I saw another post from Fresco...and I thought I responded to it.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 08:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank,

As I see it, your understanding of "self-integrity" involves an admission of "not knowing" or "guesswork". But you use the words “know” and "guess" as if you have complete jurisdiction as to their meaning, when in essence you are merely calling on "common-sense"notions rather than seeking philosophical analysis.

This position of yours on "what we do/don't know" underpins an image of yourself as “Frank the honest elder statesman of discussion”. It is maintained by accusations of “belief system” and “peddling” to all who might have had the ability to explore the vast literature on the concept of "knowledge" (epistemology) and report on some of its more controversial and interesting implications.

We also have a secondary self-image of a “respectful Frank” who apologizes for the petulant outbursts of his outspoken “co-self”. This second image perhaps switches in, in order to justify “new Frank”’s re-entry to a2k (it being the “old Frank “ who had made the resolution never to return.). We even have glimpses of a “Frank-Jesus” who “loves us”and forgives us our “peddling” (for we seeth not our folly).. Don’t get me wrong, all these “selves” are functionally “genuine” within their particular evocation.

This fragmentation of self happens to us all! Life in general and interpersonal communications in particular, evoke different “selves” or “aspects of self”, and “self integrity” at the philosophical level, is a palliative fiction for those with vested interests in maintaining it. Honesty involves recognizing this !
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 09:17 am
@fresco,
Fresco,

You wrote:

Quote:
As I see it, your understanding of "self-integrity" involves an admission of "not knowing" or "guesswork". But you use the words “know” and "guess" as if you have complete jurisdiction as to their meaning, when in essence you are merely calling on "common-sense"notions rather than seeking philosophical analysis.

This position of yours on "what we do/don't know" underpins an image of yourself as “Frank the honest elder statesman of discussion”. It is maintained by accusations of “belief system” and “peddling” to all who might have had the ability to explore the vast literature on the concept of "knowledge" (epistemology) and report on some of its more controversial and interesting implications.

We also have a secondary self-image of a “respectful Frank” who apologizes for the petulant outbursts of his outspoken “co-self”. This second image perhaps switches in, in order to justify “new Frank”’s re-entry to a2k (it being the “old Frank “ who had made the resolution never to return.). We even have glimpses of a “Frank-Jesus” who “loves us”and forgives us our “peddling” (for we seeth not our folly).. Don’t get me wrong, all these “selves” are functionally “genuine” within their particular evocation.

This fragmentation of self happens to us all! Life in general and interpersonal communications in particular, evoke different “selves” or “aspects of self”, and “self integrity” at the philosophical level, is a palliative fiction for those with vested interests in maintaining it. Honesty involves recognizing this !



Being lectured on honesty by someone like you…is like being lectured on how to lose weight by Rush Limbaugh.

I am an honest person…a person of integrity.

If you have any problem with that…**** you!

You want to pretend that you are engaged in some sort of intellectual exercise, Fresco…when in fact, you are promoting this silly, obvious belief system of yours. You want to pretend that you KNOW what the nature of the Reality of existence is.

Pretend all you want…and if there are others who want to pretend along with you, fine. Whatever helps you past the graveyard, so to speak.

But if you are going to publish this rubbish in a public forum"which is to say, if you are going to ask the public to comment on it"I will do that.

Now, if you want to go back to pretending that language is the issue we really are discussing here…do it. I will continue to insist that your pretence is really the issue.

And if it makes you happy to asssert that such a tactic is inherently “dishonesty” on my part…great.

That means both of us will be happy instead of just me.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 09:39 am
@Frank Apisa,
...and what do the other Franks think ? Smile
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 10:10 am
@Frank Apisa,
Can we define Fresco's beliefs as a system? They are just recognition of the human condition of thinking in terms of systems.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 11:16 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
...Not a "belief"... a report of a paradigm which views "thought" as operating in systems geared to the "cognitive purpose" of prediction and control.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 11:55 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
Pentacle Queen…to bring you up to speed on this, what Fresco is trying to do here…what Fresco always tries to do…is to set the parameters for the discussion in a way that excludes material that can bring his GUESSES into question.

He essentially says that questions like “Is there a GOD?” “Are there no gods?” or as properly reduced, “What is the nature of the Reality of existence?”"have no meaning and cannot be asked by “enlightened” people. Naturally, he is one of the “enlightened” people.

He also insists that my agnosticism "I do not know if a GOD exists...gods exist...or if no gods exist" has no meaning.

Fresco does this because he has already made a decision (read that: BUILT A SYSTEM OF BELIEFS) about what the nature of the Reality is…based on his GUESSES.

This is analogous to a person getting into a discussion with Christians about Christianity…and having them protest that although they want to have a discussion about whether or not “GOD exists”"only the the material that St. Paul, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about the issue can be used, because anything else “has no meaning to enlightened people.”

Please, please stick around. You will enjoy this, I promise you.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
This is analogous to a person getting into a discussion with Christians about Christianity…and having them protest that although they want to have a discussion about whether or not “GOD exists”"only the the material that St. Paul, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about the issue can be used, because anything else “has no meaning to enlightened people.”


Analogy ?

Frank doesn't understand that his apochryphal "Christians" know that "God exists".....so end of that "discussion" ....all that remains is a discussion of the meanings of "know" and "existence"....but not with them , and apparently not with Frank !
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:08 pm
@fresco,
TO PQ:

Fresco has no idea of what I understand...or do not understand.

But the reason for this note is simply to say: I AM NOT asking you to side with me...or to side against me here. I would love for you to be a spectator and contributor to the discussion...and I will appreciate any comments you have.

Most of the earlier contributors have left.

Most A2Kers get tired of beating their heads against the wall with Fresco.

I hope you don't.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Fresco has nailed down you and others on this discussion to analyzing the dictionary. Simple thoughts for the simple minded, in this case, less is less.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:36 pm
@Lightwizard,
My problem with Fresco, LW…(besides the fact that he presents his guesses about Reality as though it were divine truth revealed) is that if he were telling you, “I own a Mac”…it would take him three paragraphs…and after translating it into English, you’d still be wondering what he was trying to say.

He does not eschew obfuscation!

Don’t get me wrong…I like him. Just having a bit of fun here.

We do bump heads a lot, though!
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 02:11 pm
@Frank Apisa,
The sequence of time is perceived by Proust as in constant flux and moments of the past and the present having equal reality. There's no person who can express divine truth -- it's as elusive as attempting to grab and hang onto smoke.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 02:20 pm
@Lightwizard,
That doesn't stop some people from trying!
0 Replies
 
 

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