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Wed 30 Jan, 2008 05:35 pm
1) God, by definition, is omnipotent.
2) God, by definition, is completely good.
3) Omnipotence means (among other things) that one is capable of being good and evil.
Therefore, if God is omnipotent then he must be capable of being good and evil, but God is only capable of being good.
Ergo,
a) God, by definition, doesn't exist.
b) God isn't omnipotent, therefore God isn't by definition God, therefore God, by definition, doesn't exist.
c) God isn't completely good, therefore God isn't by definition God, therefore God, by definition, doesn't exist.
I've checked over it and it seems sound - the downfall of most logic arguments is that one statement or assumption is false or not entirely true.
Statement 1 is unarguable, by any means. Note that whether omnipotence includes the capability to do logically impossible things (God lifting the rock comes to mind) is irrelevant.
Statement 2 is unarguable, by any means. Both statements 1 and 2 are flawless - theologians, theists and atheists alike accept omnipotence and complete goodness as part of what God is.
Therefore the fault, if there is one, must lie in Statement 3. I cannot find it - omnipotence means the ability to do anything, which obviously includes evil things.
I cannot find a fault, but I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch - by all means, rip this argument apart, if you can.
(Note, I fully expect theists to come up with some daft rationalization, because to them, God must exist, and so they try to find ways for him to exist, instead of thinking that maybe God doesn't exist.)
Continue.
hi aperson,
Omnipotent doesn't mean God is 'forced' to do everything, (i.e. both good and evil).
If something could 'force' God to do what He didn't want to do, then He would not be omnipotent.
So , God has freewill and omnipotence simply means He can do whatever He wishes to do.
The seed of your conundrum may be found in your choice of premises.
1) The first statement is not inarguable. god is omnipotent... over every thing smaller than god the whole. But to assume that god is everything AND one singular entity instantly rejects the possibility of infinity. You can't assign a value to infinity any more than you can say that god is everything. There is more. Just as you can comprehend everything down to the smallest particle, it can always be divided in half. The same applies in the upward direction as well. Everything can be infinitely smaller and larger than you or I. Since god IS, god must be between us and infinity. Its a hard thing to explain using the word "infinity," but I'm tired
2) I agree with #2.
3) Disagree. Evil doesn't exist. Right and wrong don't exist. There is only that which suits the soul's purpose and that which does not suit the soul's purpose. Murder is not wrong, but it sure does damage your soul. All souls are connected. If we were knowledged of that connection, murder would be impossible. If I killed you, it would do as much damage to me as it did to you. The fact that I would still have a pulse and you wouldn't is immaterial. You would move on to the next realm, I would be in hell since I've damaged my soul but I'm still of the flesh.
Be careful when you say that something is inarguable. I see this a lot; people of atheist or agnostic persuasions using arguments from a flawed bible and society to try to describe the absence of god. What seems to be inarguable in the orange text is flawed information from a philosophy based on society and religion. If you remove your belief in evil, the whole thing clicks into place.
real life,
If you had actually read my post (for once) you would have noticed that nowhere did I say God actually did evil. I said that he had the capability to do evil.
But you indirectly bring up a interesting point - can one be completely good if one has the capability to do evil, but doesn't? Methinks therein lies the flaw!!
neologist,
Is the above what you were talking about?
curtis,
I was talking about the mainstream beliefs about God, of Christians. I do not believe in good and evil either, but Christians do. Your first argument is a wishwash of nonsense. Your second argument is just plain irritating - you speak with just confidence about how the world works. Where is your evidence, or even your basis of this theory? How can you (and other theists) be so arrogant as to pretend to know exactly how the world works? It fills me with anger, despair, and the beginning of a laugh at the same time.
EDIT: I am currently killing myself with laughter. Curtis, if you would be so kind as to read the second to last line of my first post?
Re: A (good) logic argument against God
aperson wrote:2) God, by definition, is completely good.
I think I would take issue with #2.
I suppose it depends on who's God you're talking about, but I would tend to think of "God" as everything, and therefor GoodandEvil. I'm sure there are many religions where God is pretty much all encompassing.
I'm talking about mainstream Christian God, who is by definition, good.
Thanks everyone, but I think the flaw has been identified - one can be capable of evil, but not do it. In fact, it is the choice to reject evil that makes one good.
aperson wrote:I'm talking about mainstream Christian God, who is by definition, good.
Oh, you mean the omnipotent/omniscient being who looks like an old man with a beard sitting on a cloud, who is personally involved with, and meddles in human affairs. That God? Tell me again why you're having trouble disproving such a thing. Doesn't it disprove itself out of sheer silliness.
curtis73 wrote:1) The first statement is not inarguable. god is omnipotent... over every thing smaller than god the whole. But to assume that god is everything AND one singular entity instantly rejects the possibility of infinity. You can't assign a value to infinity any more than you can say that god is everything. There is more. Just as you can comprehend everything down to the smallest particle, it can always be divided in half. The same applies in the upward direction as well. Everything can be infinitely smaller and larger than you or I. Since god IS, god must be between us and infinity. Its a hard thing to explain using the word "infinity," but I'm tired
2) I agree with #2.
3) Disagree. Evil doesn't exist. Right and wrong don't exist. There is only that which suits the soul's purpose and that which does not suit the soul's purpose. Murder is not wrong, but it sure does damage your soul. All souls are connected. If we were knowledged of that connection, murder would be impossible. If I killed you, it would do as much damage to me as it did to you. The fact that I would still have a pulse and you wouldn't is immaterial. You would move on to the next realm, I would be in hell since I've damaged my soul but I'm still of the flesh.
Be careful when you say that something is inarguable. I see this a lot; people of atheist or agnostic persuasions using arguments from a flawed bible and society to try to describe the absence of god. What seems to be inarguable in the orange text is flawed information from a philosophy based on society and religion. If you remove your belief in evil, the whole thing clicks into place.
I'll agree with you Curtis..
rosborne979 wrote:aperson wrote:I'm talking about mainstream Christian God, who is by definition, good.
Oh, you mean the omnipotent/omniscient being who looks like an old man with a beard sitting on a cloud, who is personally involved with, and meddles in human affairs. That God? Tell me again why you're having trouble disproving such a thing. Doesn't it disprove itself out of sheer silliness.
If that's mainstream Christianity then we are in trouble.
aperson wrote:rosborne979 wrote:aperson wrote:I'm talking about mainstream Christian God, who is by definition, good.
Oh, you mean the omnipotent/omniscient being who looks like an old man with a beard sitting on a cloud, who is personally involved with, and meddles in human affairs. That God? Tell me again why you're having trouble disproving such a thing. Doesn't it disprove itself out of sheer silliness.
If that's mainstream Christianity then we are in trouble.
Maybe you're right. Maybe that's just a loud tributary.
Defining God as omnipotent and omni-benevolent is a straw man argument. Even if there is a god, we have no way of knowing whether it is omnipotent or has limitations. A lone god would have no impetus to develop any kind of morality or distinguish between "good" and "evil" acts. People may wish to believe that their God is perfectly "good" but experience and the Bible tell us otherwise:
Isaiah wrote: 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Sigh.
MAINSTREAM PEOPLE, MAINSTREAM!!
Terry, the Bible says a lot of things, most of them (including your quote) contridictory to other things it says.
"The state of being omnipotent; almighty power; hence, one who is omnipotent; the Deity."
Good and "evil" have nothing to do with God. They are concepts of men. In reality there may be no such thing as good or evil, simply that that is.
Things that man perceives as "evil" are simply EVENTS in man's current reality but are not things that cause any negative durational affect in relation to eternity and God.
Ethmer wrote:"
Good and "evil" have nothing to do with God. They are concepts of men. In reality there may be no such thing as good or evil, simply that that is.
Things that man perceives as "evil" are simply EVENTS in man's current reality but are not things that cause any negative durational affect in relation to eternity and God.
I disagree. Things are either ethicaly right or wrong. Ethics though is a different matter. I believe ethics and morals are based an evolved biological need. Things like killing people is basically a biological need not to wipe your own species out. Therefore killing people is ethically wrong.
eg Evil.
Sorry to double post but...
I found the flaw in your logic.
Prove that number 2. is true.
God does not have to be benevolent. Lots of Bible passages would prove that God is evil. And don't try to say that that's Old Test God. Try reading Revelations, then tell me God's all good.
Atheist101 wrote:Sorry to double post but...
I found the flaw in your logic.
Prove that number 2. is true.
God does not have to be benevolent. Lots of Bible passages would prove that God is evil. And don't try to say that that's Old Test God. Try reading Revelations, then tell me God's all good.
After reading Revelation, tell us which deserving ones are not spared.
neologist wrote:Atheist101 wrote:Sorry to double post but...
I found the flaw in your logic.
Prove that number 2. is true.
God does not have to be benevolent. Lots of Bible passages would prove that God is evil. And don't try to say that that's Old Test God. Try reading Revelations, then tell me God's all good.
After reading Revelation, tell us which deserving ones are not spared.
The ones that aren't desended from Israel. Read Revelations 7:5-8
I take it you are desended from Israel?
Atheist101 wrote:neologist wrote:Atheist101 wrote:Sorry to double post but...
I found the flaw in your logic.
Prove that number 2. is true.
God does not have to be benevolent. Lots of Bible passages would prove that God is evil. And don't try to say that that's Old Test God. Try reading Revelations, then tell me God's all good.
After reading Revelation, tell us which deserving ones are not spared.
The ones that aren't desended from Israel. Read Revelations 7:5-8
I take it you are desended from Israel?
Why stop reading at verse 8 when verse 9 is a fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham at Genesis 22:8: "And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice."
Add that to the fact that the verses you cited refer, not to natural Israel, but to the ones referred to by Paul in Galatians 3:27-29: "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." So, from God's standpoint, it is no longer natural descent from Abraham that determines who are Abraham's seed.
Wow. God have I learn not to debate with a fundie on the Bible.
They know it so much better than me.
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