13
   

OUTRAGE OVER WHALING ... #2 <cont>

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 03:59 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Sounds like the US is pussying out a bit. US proposal asked for a smaller catch but phasing out over 10 years


Yes, sounds like it. But there's a history to this. Here's an ABC report from the IWC's meeting in Portugal last year.
The "behind the scenes" IWC working party meetings, since, involving the major interested countries, formulated the compromise proposal to be put to the entire body of the IWC in Morocco in June. Australia is not satisfied with this compromise proposal & will be presenting it's own, as an alternative. So as things stand at the moment, both resolutions will be put to the June meeting in Morocco. That is, if further "behind the scene negotiations" don't change this situation & we end up with another compromise resolution, supported by all countries, I guess. Wink


Quote:
Australia 'pushed' to accept whaling compromise
Posted Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:27am AEST
Updated Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:07am AEST/ABC NEWS online


http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200802/r221875_874062.jpg
The body of a minke whale and its calf are dragged onto a whaling ship

An anti-whaling group says Australia is being pressured by the United States to drop its demand for Japan to end so-called scientific whaling.

The 61st meeting of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) is underway in Portugal.

Australia has been pushing the IWC to close a loophole that has allowed Japan to set its own quotas for scientific whaling.


The director of the conservation group Whales Alive, Mick McIntyre, says Australia has been asked to accept a reduction in scientific whaling instead.

"The US believes that a compromise is necessary to be able to go ahead with the reform of the IWC," he said.

"It's unacceptable to the Australian Government and to the Australian people to accept a compromise, because really what is needed for is the scientific whaling to be stopped and the Commission dragged into the 21st century."

Mr McIntyre says the United States fears attempts to reform the IWC will fail if Australia continues to push the organisation to end scientific whaling. ...<cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/23/2605430.htm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 04:31 pm
@High Seas,
Interesting possible connections, High Seas.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were all sorts of vested interests at work, from a number of the countries involved.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 07:38 pm
@High Seas,
Im not aware that we were contesting Cnada's claims to Arctic Ocean since Queen E Islands and ELlsmere are undoubtedly Canadian and the Beaufort Sea is a line of demarcation. I always thought the big question was testing Russian sovereign waters by coming up the Norwegian Sea and Sailing into the ARctic.

Ill go look for anything on whar defines the territorial claims of the several nations. (I think Denmark is in there too)
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 09:00 pm
At one point very recently, the Russians were claiming the entire polar sea bed, outside territorial waters. I'm sure that was a product of the residual Soviet mind-set in diplomatic negotiations of demand it all, and let them beat you down, because you'll always be ahead.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 09:31 pm
@High Seas,
There are two issues with respect to Canada's claims to the inland northwest passage (the sea lanes above the Laborador Strait). The first has to do with their claim that it is their national waters. The U.S. recognizes their claims only out to 12 miles from the shoreline - the generally accepted international limit.

The second has to do with the "right of innocent passage" of non hostile ships through recognized international sea lanes - even those that may lie within territorial waters. (The Bahamas straits off the coast of Miami lie entirely within U.S. and Bahamian waters - however they are a main international waterway, traversed by ships of all nations without any requirement for permission or even prior notice). At one point in the 1980s some factions in the Canadian government were demanding prior notification of any U.S, Navy operations even in the offshore areas of the Labrador Straits, The U.S. refused flatly to comply or consider the matter, and I believe that aspect of the issue has since died down.

An underlying issue there was our covert submarine operations there and in Arctic waters.

There are many disputed issues such as these in the world. Indonesia claims the Lomboc Straits near the island of Bali as national waters and refuses even the right of innocent passage. The U.S. (and other maratime nations - Australia & Canada included) routinely make a point of using these Straits (one of the few navigable routes through the island chain to the South Pacific) - often with Naval vessels, just to prevent any taxit recognition to develop. (I traversed these straits at least 10 times.)

At the end of the day, international law in these areas is simply what you are able to enforce and what others accept, either formally or tacitly.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 10:38 pm
@georgeob1,
Thanks Setanta & George.
Interesting to learn these things.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 06:43 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
...Ill go look for anything on whar defines the territorial claims of the several nations. (I think Denmark is in there too)

Of course Denmark is in there - Greenland belongs to them. The combination of melting ice, improvements in drilling technology, and oil at close to $100/barrel will soon make territoriality claims very relevant indeed. All these passages btw are also used by whales and orcas in their annual migration to and from their summer fishing grounds, as is the passage next to Sakhalin island - Shell and the Japanese are drilling there, and the Russians tore up the previous contract with them claiming to be protecting the wildlife (read: get better terms for themselves). I think that's why Norway persists with whaling, they're just looking ahead to protecting their future drilling rights in the Arctic. And look at the disputed Japanese islands at the end of the Kuril chain:
http://www.athropolis.com/graphics/arcticmap4-new.gif
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 07:05 am
@High Seas,
P.S. as long as you can claim that you're engaged in some "vital economic activity" offshore your own land (whaling qualifies) you're entitled to an "exclusive economic zone" of 200 miles, not just 12 miles. The issue with the continental shelf - basis for Russian claims to the Arctic and Argentina's to the Falklands - is related but separate. Unless new whale and orca sanctuaries are established in northern waters it's going to be a free-for-all:
Quote:
Each coastal State may claim an Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) beyond and adjacent to its territorial sea that extends seaward up to 200 nm from its baselines (or out to a maritime boundary with another coastal State). Within its EEZ, a coastal State has: (a) sovereign rights for the purpose of exploring, exploiting, conserving and managing natural resources, whether living or nonliving, of the seabed and subsoil and the superjacent waters and with regard to other activities for the economic exploitation and exploration of the zone, such as the production of energy from the water, currents and winds; (b) jurisdiction as provided for in international law with regard to the establishment and use of artificial islands, installations, and structures, marine scientific research, and the protection and preservation of the marine environment, and (c) other rights and duties provided for under international law.

0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 08:24 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
....At the end of the day, international law in these areas is simply what you are able to enforce and what others accept, either formally or tacitly.

Exactly. You know I'm not inclined to argue with you on naval matters, but disputing claims of the Canadians (straits), the Brits (Falklands), the Australians (whale sanctuaries) all at once makes no sense. Open Parenthesis: To that list add Switzerland, admittedly not previously known as a maritime nation, but horribly miffed at having to ship the America's Cup to San Francisco after successfully defending it for several years. Last month I went to a wedding reception at the Geneva Yacht Club - weddings are usually festive occasions, but this was a cross between an Irish wake and Waiting for Godot. Local consensus was that Switzerland lost due to some impenetrable legalistic shenanigans. Well OK that's a digression from Ms Olga's thread so Close Parenthesis. Back to the vital long-term maritime interests of the U.S., I can't think of a more short-sighted policy than antagonizing those particular 3 countries on any subject involving freedom of navigation - who are the new friends, the Russians and the Chinese? Has anybody thought this through?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 08:27 am
@High Seas,
Hell, were so far sighted that our Congress is presewntly working on language to accuse the Ottoman Turks of "genocide".
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 10:13 am
@farmerman,
That's an area of shifting alliances, ergo negotiable - the long-term naval interests of the US are not. Read this:
Quote:

Imperial collapse may come much more suddenly than many historians imagine. A combination of fiscal deficits and military overstretch suggests that the United States may be the next empire on the precipice.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/author/niall-ferguson
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 11:03 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Interesting possible connections, High Seas.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were all sorts of vested interests at work, from a number of the countries involved.

Truer words were never spoken, Ms Olga Smile
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 12:01 pm
@High Seas,
I sometimes go two or three days at a time without felling sorry for the Swiss.

I haven't paid any attention to the America's Cup races for over twenty years - since they abandoned the 12 meter formula after the 1987 races in Perth (I was there). A club I belong to had a boat in that one (USA) whose captain (Tom Blackaller, now deceased) was a good friend. Denis Connor (San Diego) won it and quickly sold out to new unstructured approaches that soon had a catamarin winning the race. To some degree the thing is settling down again in terms of boat design, but with lovable folks like Larry Elyson involved it is difficult for me to get excited about it.

I'm not aware that we are involved in the Falklands dispute at all. In the case of the whale fisheries, it is the Australians who are making all the noise. They have stomped their feet and demanded their way in the matter, but there appears to be little desire among the other IWC signatories to upset the equilibrium.

Freedom of the Seas is a longstanding position of the United States, and I doubt we'll change our stance.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 03:57 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Freedom of the Seas is a longstanding position of the United States, and I doubt we'll change our stance.


But in terms of the IWC whaling ban, George, hasn't the US supported that till now?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 05:15 pm
@msolga,
Yes, we have supported the current agreement, which is voluntary; permits the Japanese to continue whaling at current levels; and denys claims of national soverignty over international waters.

No contradiction there. Australia is the odd man out at the moment.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 05:41 pm
@georgeob1,
What I'm interested in (regarding the US position on whaling) is the reasoning behind the changed attitude. The only argument I've come across so far (& I've been looking) is to ensure the survival of the IWC, given the ongoing impasse between the Japanese position & members who have supported the ban. Which (to me, anyway) is not exactly a terrific reason, really. I'd much prefer that another, more appropriate body (with teeth & proper authority) was established with a charter that isn't just to oversee the regulation of whaling as it's primary function, but is focused on much broader issues related to whales & other marine life . Many of us who have participated in these 2 threads have argued this way, time & time again. It's overseeing & ensuring health of the oceans which ought to be the primary focus in the 21st century. But an antiquated organization set up to regulate whaling is what we're stuck with.

As for the resolution/s that will actually be put to the full IWC meeting in June, who knows what will actually be presented at this early stage? Nothing would surprise me. I imagine there will be continued "behind the scenes" negotiations in resolving the current impasse before the meeting actually occurs.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 06:31 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I'm not aware that we are involved in the Falklands dispute at all.

Then please read this - it's diplomatese for "Take a hike, sister".
Quote:
Downing Street has rejected an offer from the US to help the UK and Argentina resolve their latest dispute over the Falkland Islands. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made the offer after renewed tensions were triggered by a UK decision to drill for oil near the islands. A spokesman for Gordon Brown said he welcomed her comments but did not think her direct involvement was necessary.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8544634.stm
georgeob1 wrote:

Freedom of the Seas is a longstanding position of the United States, and I doubt we'll change our stance.

All the more reason not to bother the Canadians - they don't object to US nuclear subs using their "right of transit" through the Northwest passage, they just worry about abuse of the "right of innocent passage" turning it into an OK corral for tankers and cruise ships of all nations.
Quote:
Canada claims the Northwest Passage as its own. The United States disagrees, and a directive president George W. Bush signed before leaving office gave U.S. departments the go-ahead for the country to start asserting itself up North. Aside from the region's energy potential, the Arctic is undoubtedly far down on Mr. Obama's list of priorities. Likewise, Mr. Harper ....At the same time, new threats, like a re-emerged Russia, provide real geo-political threats to bring the two countries closer together on defending their mutual interests in the North.

http://www.embassymag.ca/mobile/story/obama_harper-2-18-2009
Besides, Adm. Mullen has expressed cautious support for a variant of the Canadian position:
Quote:
the Pentagon reiterated its support for the treaty in its defense strategy road map, stating that signing on would "support cooperative engagement in the Arctic." It noted that such involvement could "promote a balanced approach to improving human and environmental security in the region." Mapping more of the Arctic basin has strategic benefits as well, its proponents say. "From the Navy's perspective, bottom surveys support safety of navigation for submarines and for surface ships in areas where the water becomes shallow," said Capt. Tim Galludet..

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2010/02/10/10greenwire-canada-will-use-robot-subs-to-map-arctic-sea-f-45098.html
Finally - Ms Olga is correct that the US has traditionally been a strong supporter of complete whaling bans:
Quote:
The recent designations add to the areas of the South Pacific that have been off limits to whale hunters since Australia, New Zealand, the United States and Tonga banned whaling in their territorial waters in the 1970s.

http://www.acsonline.org/issues/conservationRpts/Conservation0209.html

Probably not worth mentioning, but - it is as well that you lose no sleep about Switzerland challenging anybody for worldwide naval primacy Laughing
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 06:38 pm
@msolga,
Military priorities in an emergency must take precedence over all other considerations is the reasoning behind the change - a.k.a. force majeure, or better yet, raison d'etat, so nothing against whales, orcas, and other relatives of ours living in the oceans. Here's the statement of Admiral Mullen to the US Senate:
Quote:
...Sustaining our overseas presence, responding to complex emergencies,
prosecuting the global war on terrorism, and conducting operations
far from our shores are only possible if military forces and military
and civilian logistic supply ships and aircraft are able to make
unencumbered use of the sea and air lines of communication. This
is an enduring principle that has been in place since the founding
of our country.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache%3Ag1-t2JRBj5oJ%3Aforeign.senate.gov%2Ftestimony%2F2003%2FMullenTestimony031021.pdf+admiral+mullen+on+right+of+free+passage+senate&hl=en&gl=us
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 06:52 pm
@msolga,
Terribly sorry, Ms Olga, am on tiny portable and can't see the whole screen at one time - hope some moderator will remove the erroneous duplicate posts. My apologies to you and thread.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 06:56 pm
@High Seas,
No problem, High Seas.
I actually thought you were typing up a storm of new posts!
Thought I was going to have difficulty keeping up with you. Wink Razz
 

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